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[Music]

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exploring the bazaars are your e-ticket

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ride into the world of the paranormal

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strap yourself in as we traverse the

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universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

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ghosts Lost Worlds cryptozoology as well

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as other dimensions it's time to take

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back the night now your electrifying

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hosts of exploring the bizarre Timothy

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Begley and team sports Wow

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I'm going around in a circle look at

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this I can't get out of this this matrix

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I'm being pulled left I'm being pulled

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to right I'm being pulled up I'm being

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pulled back down I'm going around and

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around how to hell this one get out of

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the matrix Tim do you have any idea

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which I'm stuck in the matrix are you in

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here with me yes that's right ladies and

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gentlemen come see the amazing matrix

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you'll be amazed you'll be befuddled and

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remember they're all alive alive and the

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Midway of life right that's right mr.

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Beck Lee indeed well let me get myself a

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little bit centered here just land it

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back in my easy a chair and I have a

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feeling that we're back in the K Co our

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radio network here it all looks very

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similar and I see the producer Tina's

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over there in the corner and in that

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Peter is working on some great animation

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and our guests are getting either

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settled in or running for the door I'm

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not quite sure if they're smart they're

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running for the door Tim hey you go but

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Tim so how you be well we're doing

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absolutely fantastic you know

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unfortunately Halloween is now over

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yeah it's just it's just all downhill

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for me you know I mean as I've said

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before you know Halloween is my

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Christmas you know you know you know

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yeah you know who I was for Halloween

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who's that I was an inpatient there he

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did you have to wear like the like the

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the gown with the year you know the butt

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sticking out yeah you know but I was at

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NYU hospital and you know what their

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official color is a brilliant purple

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really oh it is it's a great everybody

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walks around in purple instead of you

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know drab grays and whites and whatever

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other colors that one would to wear an

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emergency room on in the hospital and

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you know medicine has come a long way I

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must say it's a day they wanted away me

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now instead of putting me on a little

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scale which anybody could do they bought

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this thing in the room and hoisted it

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down from the ceiling mm-hmm and and put

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me it's hard to explain explain is kind

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of like a giant Bell or something like

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that

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it wasn't the glocca so we don't well

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maybe maybe it was actually and and then

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they then they levitate it the thing

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into the air I don't quite see the

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purpose of that but yeah you know I

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guess this is the the the most modern

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thing on the on the scene probably get

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you down to a quarter of an ounce weight

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wise which is very important I thought

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you were gonna I thought you were going

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to say that they lowered you into like a

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vat of water and then they and then

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we're back here and we were anxious to

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get out too

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to get back to our work because without

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us where would the universe be today

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that's what we all have to ask that's a

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dick I think that's one of the reasons

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we're here tonight anyway Tim oh why

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don't you tell us who we have on tonight

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because we've got two fascinating

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people yes absolutely well it tonight we

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have with us a Tessa dick

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who has been on the show before and

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always happy to have Tessa with us now

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Tessa is the wife of the late author

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philip k dick and tessa has been

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publishing her creative writing since

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1969 which she sold an article with

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photographs to a live magazine

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well after teaching English and

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communications at Chapman University for

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12 years he retired in order to devote a

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full time to her writing her memoir

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philip k dick remembering fire bright

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tells the story behind her husband's

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pink light experiences and her other

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books include Tessa B dick my life on

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the edge of reality murder lies

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Lavinia stout murder mysteries book 2

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conversations with philip k dick and of

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course i have to throw in there she has

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the opening to our book the matrix

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control system of philip k dick and that

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paranormal synchronicities of Timothy

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green Beckley and with Tessa tonight we

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also have smiles Louis now smiles has

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had a lifelong interest in all things

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anonymous and at an early age he were

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called his nightly dreams as well as

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several personal experiences with ESP

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precognition and dreams switching

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bolstered his interest in the paranormal

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seems like all of us had her start at an

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early age when it comes to this kind of

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stuff

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now smiles is a lover of all books and

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has collected over a thousand titles

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before he founded the nonprofit and

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nominally archives that serves as the

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lending library of the scientists

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scientific anomaly Institute I should

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also mention that smiles is also his

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daytime job is with the Texas State

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Library and Archives Commission's

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talking book program and as somebody

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that has had several relatives

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throughout our life

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who were blind and used the the talking

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book program including my father in his

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later days I went to applaud smiles for

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his work with talking book program

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because it's it's just an absolutely

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fantastic program nationwide and I know

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that when I worked in PBS in

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Indianapolis they worked with the

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Indiana talking book program and I

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volunteered a number of times you know

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reading the daily newspaper and things

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like that so Tessa Dix miles Lewis thank

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you very much for being with us tonight

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on exploring the bazaar thank you well

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thank you for having me well you know

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smiles I wanted to start out asking you

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a something about your your background I

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know you're interested in all of these

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subjects and you have this incredible

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library which I probably my collection

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will end up in someday hopefully a

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little bit later down the road but you

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know I mean that's a pretty deep

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interest to spend your time cataloging

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literature you know literature in the

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field because there is such a massive

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amount of it how did you get involved in

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all of this I mean obviously it's more

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than just a superficial picking up of a

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copy of major Kehoe's book like a lot of

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people did and whose collection do you

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actually collections do you actually

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have in the library well I got involved

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in an interest in the paranormal through

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those personal experiences nothing too

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dramatic but you know strange

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experiences of of apparent telepathy

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with my mom growing up and some apparent

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precognitive visions or dreams again

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nothing too significant not like

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predicting you know airplane crashes or

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anything like that but just little

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things on a personal level extreme cases

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of deja vu that might be explainable by

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most skeptics through

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some kind of brain trick of neuro

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chemistry or whatnot but it was also

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that that recall of dreams every night

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because we every every day we experience

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the paranormal and this in the in the

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realm of the virtual reality that is our

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dream time and it was that interest in

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growing up on science fiction that just

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primed me for an interest in UFOs and of

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course growing up on that science

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fiction and TV shows like that's

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incredible and others that chronicled

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famous infamous

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UFO encounters from around the world I

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was just fascinated with the possibility

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of interacting with some actual

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intelligence on this planet for maybe

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for else since it was so hard to find

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sometimes right here on planet Earth but

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so I just started you know reading all

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voraciously all the books in my public

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library my school library starting off

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with the classic I can't McDaniel Cowan

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is one of the you know classic Daniel

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Cohen I I was on the radio with him many

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many years ago several times he used to

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be on the Barry Farber Show I don't know

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if you're familiar with the Farber but

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he was one of the most well critical of

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certainly of the whole UFO paranormal

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range of topics but he had a distinctive

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way of talking his his very astute

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literary type gentleman who could

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captivate an audience with his his voice

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even if he didn't agree with him as

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opposed as opposed to today you know

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where they as a slam dunk you into the

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corner and don't let you up and choke

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you to death if you don't go along with

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their current theology yeah well I I

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don't think I ever got the chance to

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hear that person's radio show but you

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know I sure there's some archives out

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there that need preserve oh yeah yeah

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yeah by I believe now I can't say the

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state this sort of fact but I think that

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was ever you know outside of maybe a

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couple of local programs that I was on

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and that would go back to about maybe

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1964 or something he was on a I forget

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wor the same network maybe as long john

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was or something you know he was late

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night but not quite that late and the

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paranormal was not his main this topic

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it was a lot of politics and in current

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events and all but he would he would he

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would to have Daniel Cohen on every once

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in a while and Daniel Cohen I I think

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his books were aimed at a young audience

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I mean that you know they were yeah and

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that's that's where how I came across

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him in my school library and so right

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out of high school I found the local

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MUFON chapter got involved with them

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eventually led it got involved with the

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local abductee experience or support

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group eventually led that started my own

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zine publishing on UFOs mind control

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parapsychology and then started just you

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know of course I'm collecting books this

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whole time and meeting other people who

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are collecting books and eventually

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people start when they get sick of their

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true seeking they would give me their

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books and so I'd end up with even more

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books and you know then I organized the

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best UFO conference that never happened

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in 2000 my god yes yes and so all this

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led to me going you know there needs to

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be a a repository for all this material

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not just the books but the the research

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papers of fellow researchers and seekers

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and authors and I was inspired by the

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likes of parapsychology researcher ray

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white with her exceptional human

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experience network the parapsychological

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Association and psychical library and

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over in Sweden the archives for UFO

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research and so I was like there needs

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to be something like that for paranormal

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UFO researchers here in North America

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and so I founded the nonprofit

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scientific anomaly Institute anomaly

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archives and it's grown over the years

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we've had a number of small donations

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mostly from just you know individual

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seekers of

274
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but you know here and there like Dennis

275
00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:01,140
Stacy who was the editor of MUFON

276
00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:02,700
Journal for a long time as written for

277
00:14:12,770 --> 00:14:08,340
Omni magazine and Co edits the UNAM list

278
00:14:16,070 --> 00:14:12,780
books series with Patrick weazened and

279
00:14:17,660 --> 00:14:16,080
then we've had a few others the the

280
00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:17,670
biggest though as I as I mentioned on a

281
00:14:22,130 --> 00:14:20,070
past appearance with you was a Rob

282
00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:22,140
Gerard the rare book seller who ran

283
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:24,780
Arcturus books for so many years he

284
00:14:32,510 --> 00:14:28,170
passed away years ago and one of the big

285
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:32,520
wigs that MUFON managed to negotiate

286
00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:35,010
with the widow somebody to purchase that

287
00:14:40,190 --> 00:14:36,870
collection and donate it to our archive

288
00:14:42,410 --> 00:14:40,200
here in Austin Texas and so we received

289
00:14:44,990 --> 00:14:42,420
over 3,000 books and so now we've got

290
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:45,000
you know well over 5,000 books and and

291
00:14:50,330 --> 00:14:48,210
tons and tons of personal files paper

292
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:50,340
files periodicals and whatnot on all

293
00:14:54,190 --> 00:14:52,410
this material and the subject areas from

294
00:14:55,930 --> 00:14:54,200
crop circles to consciousness to

295
00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:55,940
parapsychology telepathy

296
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:58,170
psychokinesis and of course good old

297
00:15:03,020 --> 00:15:00,320
UFOs and lots of stuff on mind-control

298
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:03,030
conspiracy and parasite peres me her

299
00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:05,690
pair of politics deep state stuff and

300
00:15:12,770 --> 00:15:09,630
most recently we got a donation

301
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:12,780
collection from a local woman who turns

302
00:15:17,660 --> 00:15:15,270
out to have been an addict included in

303
00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:17,670
the late great abduction researcher dr.

304
00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:19,590
Carla Turner's book taken inside the

305
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:23,670
alien-human hybrid agenda and it turns

306
00:15:29,570 --> 00:15:26,310
out so we've we've got some books from

307
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:29,580
her Hartley estate of this woman that

308
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:32,850
passed and also a whole bunch of her

309
00:15:37,550 --> 00:15:35,730
personal correspondence her dream

310
00:15:39,950 --> 00:15:37,560
journals for years and years

311
00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:39,960
turns out she was also like involved in

312
00:15:44,690 --> 00:15:41,280
the Texas parapsychological Association

313
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:44,700
years before but this woman was one of

314
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:47,580
many one of the eight abductees who were

315
00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:50,130
profiled in this book taken by abduction

316
00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:52,920
researcher Karla Turner and where sadly

317
00:15:57,530 --> 00:15:55,160
Karla has passed this this abduction

318
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:57,540
abductee has passed and so have several

319
00:16:01,970 --> 00:15:59,610
others in this tome so you know this is

320
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:01,980
like some kind of primary personal

321
00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:04,290
source material that's exactly the kind

322
00:16:09,049 --> 00:16:05,670
of material that we're looking to

323
00:16:10,969 --> 00:16:09,059
preserve for posterity because

324
00:16:12,859 --> 00:16:10,979
so we'll often this kind of material

325
00:16:14,719 --> 00:16:12,869
when somebody passes the family often

326
00:16:16,429 --> 00:16:14,729
doesn't have the same appreciation of

327
00:16:18,739 --> 00:16:16,439
this kind of stuff that you or I might

328
00:16:21,369 --> 00:16:18,749
and it inevitably ends up either in the

329
00:16:24,529 --> 00:16:21,379
landfill or just going on eBay or just

330
00:16:26,359 --> 00:16:24,539
thrown to the winds and I don't want to

331
00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:26,369
see that happen and so I'm trying my

332
00:16:31,729 --> 00:16:29,999
damndest to you know make that you know

333
00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:31,739
make this kind of an archive in for

334
00:16:35,569 --> 00:16:33,809
North America a reality there certainly

335
00:16:37,549 --> 00:16:35,579
are a number of universities here and

336
00:16:39,409 --> 00:16:37,559
there who've taken on individual

337
00:16:42,229 --> 00:16:39,419
collections you know of course the

338
00:16:45,019 --> 00:16:42,239
y'all-y'all have interviewed the the the

339
00:16:48,969 --> 00:16:45,029
librarian at the is at the Clarksburg

340
00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:48,979
where the great barker collection is and

341
00:16:54,199 --> 00:16:52,049
you know there's a few other individual

342
00:16:57,079 --> 00:16:54,209
collections but even even MUFON doesn't

343
00:16:59,299 --> 00:16:57,089
really have a good condition with their

344
00:17:01,909 --> 00:16:59,309
own collection and and Koufos you know

345
00:17:04,159 --> 00:17:01,919
I'm not sure how well maintained in

346
00:17:06,919 --> 00:17:04,169
their library or files are at this point

347
00:17:08,389 --> 00:17:06,929
I know like my people that are active

348
00:17:11,869 --> 00:17:08,399
with it and like Michael swords you know

349
00:17:15,439 --> 00:17:11,879
have pretty dramatic awesome home done

350
00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:15,449
garage style archives and I think this

351
00:17:22,249 --> 00:17:18,529
guy David Marlar inherited a lot of

352
00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:22,259
lucious farish's collection the UFO news

353
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:24,569
clipping guy so there are these pockets

354
00:17:28,970 --> 00:17:27,089
of archives and hopefully we can all

355
00:17:31,159 --> 00:17:28,980
continue to network and exchange

356
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:31,169
information and and preserve this

357
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:33,090
important material whether or not

358
00:17:36,019 --> 00:17:34,799
whether you think it's bunk whether

359
00:17:37,759 --> 00:17:36,029
you're a skeptic who thinks it's all

360
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:37,769
just lunacy or whether you're a true

361
00:17:44,749 --> 00:17:39,570
believer who thinks it's the gospel I

362
00:17:46,940 --> 00:17:44,759
think it's all worth preserving well now

363
00:17:49,879 --> 00:17:46,950
didn't I read smiles that you're

364
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:49,889
actually looking for new digs for for

365
00:17:54,609 --> 00:17:53,039
your library yeah we we've been at the

366
00:17:56,239 --> 00:17:54,619
same location for the last nine years

367
00:17:58,609 --> 00:17:56,249
cohabitating a space with another

368
00:18:00,259 --> 00:17:58,619
nonprofit that I'm involved when excuse

369
00:18:01,639 --> 00:18:00,269
me it involved with called Institute for

370
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:01,649
Neuroscience and consciousness studies

371
00:18:07,789 --> 00:18:05,610
INEX and we are on the search for you

372
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:07,799
know as as you you may have heard about

373
00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:09,600
this little town I live in called Austin

374
00:18:20,210 --> 00:18:16,830
Texas it may be popular and rather

375
00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:20,220
horrifically and dramatically we are on

376
00:18:24,510 --> 00:18:22,160
the lookout and you

377
00:18:28,810 --> 00:18:24,520
my mood changes from day to day from

378
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:28,820
aghast and and doom saying to you know

379
00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:30,320
hey actually you know things are looking

380
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:32,630
up so right now I'm actually pretty

381
00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:34,610
optimistic I think we've come across

382
00:18:39,610 --> 00:18:35,990
some recent properties that seem

383
00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:39,620
promising and we may finally be moving

384
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:40,940
into some bigger digs which is good

385
00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:43,130
because we need the space mm-hmm well

386
00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:45,080
now are there like any special

387
00:18:49,930 --> 00:18:46,910
conditions you know that you have to

388
00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:49,940
have for a new location I mean you know

389
00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:51,740
naturally you just you can't move into

390
00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:54,020
like a wet damp basement somewhere right

391
00:18:58,270 --> 00:18:56,150
no we've already endured our share of

392
00:19:01,060 --> 00:18:58,280
little mini disasters like you might be

393
00:19:02,890 --> 00:19:01,070
intimating you know just good at a good

394
00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:02,900
HVAC system good heating and cooling to

395
00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:04,430
keep the temperature you know climate

396
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:06,470
controlled is is the the main thing dry

397
00:19:12,190 --> 00:19:10,310
but not too dry you know we're not at

398
00:19:15,370 --> 00:19:12,200
the stage yet where we can have you know

399
00:19:17,050 --> 00:19:15,380
the truly best archival circumstances

400
00:19:18,910 --> 00:19:17,060
you know in my day job at the State

401
00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:18,920
Library and Archives Commission you know

402
00:19:22,690 --> 00:19:20,900
they're they are focused on of course

403
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:22,700
you know how to you know they've even

404
00:19:26,110 --> 00:19:24,710
got lean a special yellow lighting that

405
00:19:27,460 --> 00:19:26,120
you would never want to be under for any

406
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:27,470
length of time but that's specially

407
00:19:33,610 --> 00:19:30,080
designed not to to deteriorate the

408
00:19:36,490 --> 00:19:33,620
materials but you know that we're we're

409
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:36,500
not quite at that that scale yet to to

410
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:38,930
have that level of preservation and even

411
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:40,850
even like I said the inspirations for

412
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:44,570
our archive over in Sweden I don't quite

413
00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:47,930
have that level of archival quality yet

414
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:51,190
but you know we've got advisors who are

415
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:53,570
archivists from the State Library as

416
00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:55,490
well as who also work with the

417
00:19:58,510 --> 00:19:57,470
University of Texas Harry Ransom Center

418
00:20:00,730 --> 00:19:58,520
that has some of the most amazing

419
00:20:02,410 --> 00:20:00,740
collections on the planet including the

420
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:02,420
Aleister Crowley collection The Beat

421
00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:05,600
poets collection all kinds of stuff and

422
00:20:08,650 --> 00:20:06,830
you know we're actively seeking

423
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:08,660
partnerships with those kinds of

424
00:20:14,170 --> 00:20:11,600
institutions not so much to take on the

425
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:14,180
material permanently but to help us with

426
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:17,810
the preservation process and thank you

427
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:19,370
for what you said about the talking book

428
00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:22,730
program I you know it's it's it's been a

429
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:23,900
pleasure working there for 20 years

430
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:27,410
because it is a great program that is

431
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:29,690
free to people who qualify due to a

432
00:20:34,990 --> 00:20:32,470
variety of disabilities and you know

433
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:35,000
there's there's nothing better that to

434
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:36,080
me than to get to

435
00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:40,370
with books mm-hmm well I mean it's it's

436
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:42,800
it has a special place in my heart as

437
00:20:47,620 --> 00:20:44,960
well because I had an uncle that I've

438
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:47,630
been when I was a very very very young

439
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:49,520
boy he was accidentally he was blinded

440
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:52,130
in an accident and so he started you

441
00:21:00,850 --> 00:20:57,970
know using the the the these services

442
00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:00,860
quite early I mean and you know they the

443
00:21:04,510 --> 00:21:03,590
first step I remember actually you know

444
00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:04,520
on vinyl

445
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:06,590
yeah these you know like books and

446
00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:08,930
magazines and things like that and then

447
00:21:13,780 --> 00:21:11,000
you know what eventually it they started

448
00:21:16,750 --> 00:21:13,790
coming in like these these huge cassette

449
00:21:18,190 --> 00:21:16,760
looking almost like big carts you know

450
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:18,200
if anybody in radio knows you know what

451
00:21:23,230 --> 00:21:20,530
a card is and then you know eventually

452
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:23,240
shortly unfortunately before you passed

453
00:21:28,330 --> 00:21:25,520
away they you know started coming you

454
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:28,340
know digitized so I mean it's just it

455
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:29,960
was it's just an amazing thing to see

456
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:32,570
you know progress over these years and

457
00:21:37,540 --> 00:21:34,370
you know then like I said you know my

458
00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:37,550
father and in the last years of his life

459
00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:40,790
he got macular degeneration and so I

460
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:43,190
mean he relied quite a bit on these

461
00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:45,230
books and so I always made sure what I

462
00:21:50,650 --> 00:21:48,590
worked for the PBS station in in

463
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:50,660
Indianapolis that I would always

464
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:53,050
volunteer whenever needed you know to

465
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:55,610
you know to do readings of newspapers or

466
00:21:59,320 --> 00:21:56,960
things like that unfortunately I don't

467
00:22:01,960 --> 00:21:59,330
have the best voice in the world but you

468
00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:01,970
know they were happy happy to have me

469
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:07,190
suckers darn near every state in this

470
00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:10,730
great Union of ours has a program that's

471
00:22:14,890 --> 00:22:12,950
part of the national network and there

472
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:14,900
are tons of places that need volunteers

473
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:18,350
so no it's thank you for your time

474
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:21,770
volunteering and just about every one of

475
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:23,570
us no likely knows somebody who

476
00:22:27,460 --> 00:22:25,490
qualifies for the program it's not just

477
00:22:30,850 --> 00:22:27,470
complete blindness that can be like you

478
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:30,860
mentioned macular degeneration to things

479
00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:32,210
like severe arthritis if you're

480
00:22:36,730 --> 00:22:33,940
physically if not able to hold a book

481
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:36,740
that that might qualify you for for this

482
00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:39,650
program so well and it's one of these

483
00:22:45,340 --> 00:22:41,030
Pro it's one of these programs as well

484
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:45,350
that I think needs to have better

485
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:47,810
publicity because I know there are a lot

486
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:49,190
of people that I have talked

487
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:50,510
over the years I mean they never even

488
00:22:55,450 --> 00:22:52,910
heard such a thing and it's like oh my

489
00:22:56,650 --> 00:22:55,460
gosh you know you you know there's a lot

490
00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:56,660
of places that you know they'll give you

491
00:23:00,850 --> 00:22:58,640
free radios to get their get their

492
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:00,860
broadcast their daily broadcasts you

493
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:03,050
know for those kinds of things so but

494
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:06,320
Tim I see that we have a little less

495
00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:08,240
than a minute before we have to go to

496
00:23:13,570 --> 00:23:11,000
our break so when we come back we'll

497
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:13,580
have to bring Tessa Nick into the

498
00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:15,610
conversation because I know she's been

499
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:17,870
sitting there on her phone patiently

500
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:20,330
waiting for us to shut up so she can

501
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:23,650
talk so will will will definitely what

502
00:23:29,930 --> 00:23:29,090
give Tessa her time coming back for more

503
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:29,940
explored

504
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:45,019
now back to exploring the bazaar with

505
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:47,610
two of the most electrifying researchers

506
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:50,940
in the Paranoid your hosts Timothy Becca

507
00:23:59,630 --> 00:23:57,450
Lee and Taylor Swift's and welcome back

508
00:24:02,930 --> 00:23:59,640
to exploring the bazaar tonight we are

509
00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:02,940
talking with smiles Lewis and Tessa dick

510
00:24:05,810 --> 00:24:04,860
which we will now bring into the

511
00:24:08,419 --> 00:24:05,820
conversation

512
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:08,429
Tessa thank you very much for patiently

513
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:10,200
waiting it's really great to have you

514
00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:13,830
with us again tonight my pleasure

515
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:19,860
I think I promise I promise you like

516
00:24:27,019 --> 00:24:22,770
always will be nice can i plug my most

517
00:24:31,580 --> 00:24:27,029
recent book oh yes as often as you like

518
00:24:35,899 --> 00:24:31,590
it's called conversations with philip k

519
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:35,909
dick and i was not going to write

520
00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:39,840
another book about phil but the people

521
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:43,260
who read philip k dick remembering fire

522
00:24:52,060 --> 00:24:48,240
bright kind of demanded it so now you

523
00:24:56,060 --> 00:24:52,070
can get conversations with philip k dick

524
00:25:00,590 --> 00:24:56,070
it's available in several places but the

525
00:25:02,990 --> 00:25:00,600
best place to find it is on amazon where

526
00:25:06,730 --> 00:25:03,000
i have an author page that lists all of

527
00:25:10,130 --> 00:25:06,740
my books but if you see one that's like

528
00:25:14,139 --> 00:25:10,140
$100 i'm not selling that one it's a

529
00:25:19,639 --> 00:25:14,149
book that's out of print and book

530
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:19,649
dealers are reselling their copies yeah

531
00:25:23,779 --> 00:25:21,840
we Tim Beck Lee and I have often

532
00:25:26,299 --> 00:25:23,789
speculated about that because I mean

533
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:26,309
they they these so-called book dealers

534
00:25:31,639 --> 00:25:28,950
have a lot of our books listed as well

535
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:31,649
books that you aren't out of print yet

536
00:25:35,779 --> 00:25:33,210
they have them listed for you like you

537
00:25:37,340 --> 00:25:35,789
said you know over $100 or so and it's

538
00:25:39,380 --> 00:25:37,350
just like you know what you know what

539
00:25:44,659 --> 00:25:39,390
person would be foolish enough and I

540
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:44,669
suppose they only need one or two I can

541
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:48,270
see the sense in it they buy ten or

542
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:50,530
twenty copies when it's first

543
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:53,650
released and hold on to them hoping to

544
00:26:00,150 --> 00:25:56,290
make a profit and I guess there's

545
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:00,160
nothing wrong with that but I try to

546
00:26:14,010 --> 00:26:08,290
frights my book much more reasonably I

547
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:14,020
could make a living anyway well I have I

548
00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:16,620
have to say that your most recent book I

549
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:20,230
thoroughly enjoyed it I been reading the

550
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:23,200
the copy that that you sent us and it's

551
00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:26,710
just I'm so happy that they convinced

552
00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:29,440
you to to write it I know that the last

553
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:31,030
time that you were on our show you

554
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:35,020
talked about that you possibly were you

555
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:37,510
know going to start doing that so I'm

556
00:26:47,010 --> 00:26:43,440
glad you finally did thank you it's I

557
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:47,020
want to write another murder mystery I'm

558
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:52,450
being pressured about that to set in the

559
00:26:58,650 --> 00:26:55,780
mountains where I live and the local

560
00:27:02,040 --> 00:26:58,660
people love it and they want another oh

561
00:27:05,810 --> 00:27:02,050
yes you definitely should yeah yeah I'll

562
00:27:10,350 --> 00:27:05,820
go along with them do it

563
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:10,360
kinder gentler murder mystery but the

564
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:13,450
second one will have vampires can't go

565
00:27:17,910 --> 00:27:14,530
wrong with vampires

566
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:17,920
seems as we age you can work there you

567
00:27:24,570 --> 00:27:21,130
go those were about as timely topics as

568
00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:24,580
you can get hey you know Tessa you you

569
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:27,630
sent these books on overheard to us

570
00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:30,760
that's the conversations with philip k

571
00:27:36,930 --> 00:27:34,990
dick and my life on the edge of reality

572
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:36,940
before we turn the conversation over to

573
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:39,490
smiles because i i know he has a lot of

574
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:42,640
things that he wants to ask you I did

575
00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:46,890
want to question you about now I know a

576
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:49,660
Philip had a UH at least a peripheral

577
00:27:55,860 --> 00:27:53,530
interest in UFOs there were some people

578
00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:55,870
that used to hang out I guess his house

579
00:28:03,480 --> 00:27:58,330
at one time that I tried repeatedly to

580
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:03,490
get him to go to UFO meetings I guess

581
00:28:06,010 --> 00:28:04,370
any kind of

582
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:06,020
get out he wasn't all that interested in

583
00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:08,000
it because they kind of had a New Age

584
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:12,559
approach to the the the subject but you

585
00:28:17,049 --> 00:28:15,170
did mention in the book in passing some

586
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:17,059
experience that he had with the men in

587
00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:23,360
black oh yes we didn't know about men in

588
00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:27,230
black at the time but they were men men

589
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,360
wearing black suits so when I learned

590
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:34,640
about men and black which was actually

591
00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:38,090
quite recently because I don't read the

592
00:28:45,940 --> 00:28:41,950
UFO stuff either and well I did until

593
00:28:49,330 --> 00:28:45,950
Andy Coulson sent me a handful of books

594
00:28:52,030 --> 00:28:49,340
by John keel he had me write the

595
00:28:58,150 --> 00:28:52,040
introduction to one of his collections

596
00:29:02,460 --> 00:28:58,160
of John keels writing anyway yeah he was

597
00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:02,470
up in Canada already traumatized by his

598
00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:07,700
experiences in San Rafael and he was not

599
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:09,950
planning to come back to the United

600
00:29:19,930 --> 00:29:15,530
States when he was abducted by two men

601
00:29:23,230 --> 00:29:19,940
in black suits who put him in the back

602
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:23,240
of a limousine and one man sat on each

603
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:25,850
side of him and talked to him

604
00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:28,790
questioning him while they drove around

605
00:29:35,790 --> 00:29:32,120
the streets of Vancouver in British

606
00:29:39,610 --> 00:29:35,800
Columbia and he couldn't really remember

607
00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:39,620
what they had talked about in any detail

608
00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:47,030
but after they took him home he tried to

609
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:50,140
kill himself and he believed that they

610
00:29:58,330 --> 00:29:55,010
hypnotized him and drugged him and made

611
00:30:02,770 --> 00:29:58,340
him swallow a whole bottle of sleeping

612
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:02,780
pills Wow but he regained consciousness

613
00:30:08,740 --> 00:30:07,490
just long enough to call for help when

614
00:30:10,810 --> 00:30:08,750
out of smiles

615
00:30:14,140 --> 00:30:10,820
you've heard of I guess the story

616
00:30:17,890 --> 00:30:14,150
somewhat similar to that I know we had a

617
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:17,900
fellow of a back many many years ago

618
00:30:25,390 --> 00:30:20,710
who called me on the phone and related a

619
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:25,400
similar experience of being driven

620
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:28,130
around and I guess the brief by the men

621
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:30,980
in black then in my I think was in our

622
00:30:39,790 --> 00:30:33,170
UFO silences book I talked about this

623
00:30:42,010 --> 00:30:39,800
gal who was actually kidnapped and and

624
00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:42,020
taken to some building I think in the

625
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:45,830
Washington DC area after she had a brief

626
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:48,770
UFO encounter and she was a kept a

627
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:51,050
captive there in a building that was

628
00:30:55,540 --> 00:30:53,690
totally blah you know blacked out with

629
00:30:59,250 --> 00:30:55,550
the windows covered over and everything

630
00:31:04,720 --> 00:30:59,260
so she could not ever see where she was

631
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:04,730
taken to and anyway these kind of

632
00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:10,250
stories seem to pop up from time to time

633
00:31:16,770 --> 00:31:15,020
in the UFO field and have you heard of

634
00:31:20,050 --> 00:31:16,780
anything along that line

635
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:20,060
nothing is extreme as what Phil

636
00:31:23,710 --> 00:31:22,130
experienced I mean there's there

637
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:23,720
certainly a number of reports over the

638
00:31:31,780 --> 00:31:28,570
years of people having that sort of

639
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:31,790
experience of being led into you know

640
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:34,850
coaxed into a vehicle and then having

641
00:31:40,420 --> 00:31:38,050
some sort of time loss or memory loss

642
00:31:43,450 --> 00:31:40,430
the implication being some kind of a

643
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:43,460
drugging yeah well we've had we've had

644
00:31:48,190 --> 00:31:46,130
on a couple times on the program in fact

645
00:31:49,450 --> 00:31:48,200
I know we just left a message for me the

646
00:31:52,450 --> 00:31:49,460
other day and I have to get back to him

647
00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:52,460
a country-and-western performer by the

648
00:31:58,930 --> 00:31:55,510
name of Johnny sands who had an

649
00:32:00,610 --> 00:31:58,940
experienced New Year's Eve can't

650
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:00,620
remember the exact year but outside of

651
00:32:07,030 --> 00:32:03,410
Las Vegas where he was driving to the

652
00:32:09,310 --> 00:32:07,040
Sands Hotel casino and he had this

653
00:32:12,130 --> 00:32:09,320
experience where a UFO was at the site

654
00:32:15,340 --> 00:32:12,140
of the the road and he had some sort of

655
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:15,350
a conversation telepathic conversation

656
00:32:21,550 --> 00:32:17,840
with the beings and then when he was at

657
00:32:24,130 --> 00:32:21,560
the the sands they came in and they had

658
00:32:26,590 --> 00:32:24,140
somebody draw a portrait you know

659
00:32:29,770 --> 00:32:26,600
rendering of what he had seen and then

660
00:32:31,539 --> 00:32:29,780
he met with this very strange group that

661
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:31,549
had an office who wanted to make a move

662
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:33,320
here's something about his experience

663
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:35,600
but then when they went back to confer

664
00:32:43,629 --> 00:32:40,960
with the with the producers the

665
00:32:45,129 --> 00:32:43,639
apartment was vacant and the people that

666
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:45,139
own the building claimed it nobody had

667
00:32:49,629 --> 00:32:47,330
ever you hadn't lived there in months

668
00:32:51,729 --> 00:32:49,639
and certainly there was no TV crew

669
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:51,739
involved and then he was taken to the

670
00:32:57,489 --> 00:32:55,279
desert in a limousine of sorts and the

671
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:57,499
vehicle was parked there and there were

672
00:33:01,899 --> 00:32:59,840
all these other vehicles like aim their

673
00:33:03,639 --> 00:33:01,909
headlights at his car

674
00:33:06,580 --> 00:33:03,649
and he tried to get out and there were

675
00:33:09,639 --> 00:33:06,590
some bigfoot-type creatures guarding the

676
00:33:11,619 --> 00:33:09,649
door yeah you've heard this story Tim

677
00:33:13,989 --> 00:33:11,629
I've told that he's told it before on

678
00:33:16,060 --> 00:33:13,999
the air oh yeah definitely we need to

679
00:33:18,159 --> 00:33:16,070
get the Johnny Mac on our show again

680
00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:18,169
yeah yeah well he did called leave a

681
00:33:23,950 --> 00:33:21,590
message and so I will get back to him

682
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:23,960
and we haven't had a month for a couple

683
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:26,809
years and I know our buddy bill birnes

684
00:33:30,609 --> 00:33:29,090
who has a new book out is always

685
00:33:33,159 --> 00:33:30,619
interested in talking to him so I think

686
00:33:35,229 --> 00:33:33,169
we'll we'll hook them up anyway a smiles

687
00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:35,239
I want to turn the microphone over to

688
00:33:39,940 --> 00:33:36,470
you because I know you have some

689
00:33:43,479 --> 00:33:39,950
questions they asked Tessa and we'll get

690
00:33:48,639 --> 00:33:43,489
a fresh approach on both her career and

691
00:33:52,330 --> 00:33:48,649
on that of her late husband Philip okay

692
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:52,340
a dick maybe we ought to start off with

693
00:33:59,799 --> 00:33:54,320
the new Blade Runner did you see the

694
00:34:02,680 --> 00:33:59,809
movie yes I did actually and I was

695
00:34:06,009 --> 00:34:02,690
pleasantly surprised I enjoyed it

696
00:34:07,989 --> 00:34:06,019
of course I'm not the most discerning

697
00:34:12,220 --> 00:34:07,999
critic perhaps when it comes to science

698
00:34:14,349 --> 00:34:12,230
fiction but as a fan of the movies that

699
00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:14,359
of course was my introduction to his

700
00:34:20,409 --> 00:34:17,089
work but in a roundabout way and but

701
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:20,419
however in the original film introduced

702
00:34:24,220 --> 00:34:22,159
me to his work but it was it was you

703
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:24,230
know a decade or more later that I

704
00:34:31,869 --> 00:34:26,450
actually became versed in his actual

705
00:34:35,139 --> 00:34:31,879
writing and I became a fan and largely

706
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:35,149
because of my interest in UFOs it was it

707
00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:37,609
was the the UFO seen that actually

708
00:34:44,289 --> 00:34:41,990
introduced me to Phil and and what I

709
00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:44,299
think is his significance and what he

710
00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:45,560
has to contribute

711
00:34:51,700 --> 00:34:49,730
you thinking on the subject but Tessa I

712
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:51,710
just want to say it's a pleasure to meet

713
00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:54,290
you and it's an honor to have the chance

714
00:34:57,940 --> 00:34:56,000
to talk to you and to find out a little

715
00:34:59,350 --> 00:34:57,950
bit more about yourself and your your

716
00:35:04,470 --> 00:34:59,360
own life experiences and your

717
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:04,480
experiences with Phil thank you

718
00:35:13,060 --> 00:35:07,370
am I correct that you met him in the

719
00:35:17,830 --> 00:35:13,070
summer of 1972 yes and was that at a

720
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:17,840
beach party it was supposed to be a

721
00:35:25,060 --> 00:35:21,470
beach party but we ended up at someone's

722
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:25,070
house where we didn't really know

723
00:35:32,860 --> 00:35:27,220
anybody

724
00:35:37,180 --> 00:35:32,870
Phil and I both knew ginger she had just

725
00:35:40,570 --> 00:35:37,190
dumped him and he was clingy and trying

726
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:40,580
to get her back and so she was trying to

727
00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:42,710
find someone else to be his girlfriend

728
00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:49,100
so he'd leave her alone and originally

729
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:52,640
she wanted my mother to go but and even

730
00:36:01,570 --> 00:35:56,770
though mom was still married to dad she

731
00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:01,580
often cheated on him oh but mom didn't

732
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:06,140
want to go so I would went because I was

733
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:11,030
just bored I just turned 18 finished

734
00:36:18,940 --> 00:36:14,890
high school had nothing to do really I

735
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:18,950
was just waiting for the fall when I was

736
00:36:26,260 --> 00:36:22,610
either going to college or joining the

737
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:26,270
Navy I I was leaning toward the Navy and

738
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:33,410
then I met Phil and so this disc and the

739
00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:35,450
this was so this seemed at the time like

740
00:36:41,980 --> 00:36:40,100
a random encounter but later you you you

741
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:41,990
you and he both would come to feel

742
00:36:46,270 --> 00:36:43,850
differently that it that maybe there was

743
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:46,280
some some force at work

744
00:36:53,620 --> 00:36:49,760
oh so always thought it was a setup and

745
00:36:55,930 --> 00:36:53,630
at first I thought I was in on it but

746
00:36:58,660 --> 00:36:55,940
that didn't stop him from taking it me

747
00:37:00,940 --> 00:36:58,670
home with him

748
00:37:02,980 --> 00:37:00,950
well who would have set it up I mean

749
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:02,990
when you say set a set up are we talking

750
00:37:10,540 --> 00:37:08,180
about somebody I figured that ginger

751
00:37:16,090 --> 00:37:10,550
just wanted him to meet somebody else

752
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:16,100
but still thought that there was

753
00:37:23,830 --> 00:37:19,130
something more nefarious going on and he

754
00:37:28,050 --> 00:37:23,840
might have been right Phil and I both

755
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:28,060
had experienced really strange things

756
00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:31,280
beginning in childhood and continuing

757
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:38,990
into adulthood and he thought that he

758
00:37:49,660 --> 00:37:44,450
was in danger somehow then that I that I

759
00:37:52,330 --> 00:37:49,670
might harm him you you both had come

760
00:37:57,790 --> 00:37:52,340
through some rough periods leading up to

761
00:37:59,710 --> 00:37:57,800
that that that first meeting and I'm

762
00:38:02,830 --> 00:37:59,720
really there's so much I want to ask you

763
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:02,840
about that that can goes into some very

764
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:07,310
deep areas but you you write about a

765
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:10,490
particularly UFO like series of

766
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:13,040
experiences or memory from two years

767
00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:18,410
previous could we jump back to your

768
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:25,070
memories of that I'm speaking of I'm not

769
00:38:32,170 --> 00:38:28,730
I've never been convinced that it really

770
00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:32,180
was UFOs and aliens I think it was quite

771
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:37,910
a human endeavor right of course if you

772
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:40,610
read Phil's books you come to question

773
00:38:50,170 --> 00:38:45,490
just exactly what the word human means

774
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:50,180
indeed but you yeah the people I saw

775
00:38:57,660 --> 00:38:54,020
looked human they were little taller

776
00:39:02,410 --> 00:38:57,670
than average and darn good-looking but

777
00:39:05,140 --> 00:39:02,420
human and you even suspect that they

778
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:05,150
could possibly be related to the

779
00:39:10,580 --> 00:39:07,370
proximity of the nearby military base

780
00:39:16,190 --> 00:39:10,590
which I believe you said was Edwards

781
00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:16,200
well that's what I was thinking but more

782
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:18,870
and more I think it's another base

783
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:23,040
because I keep going blank on the name

784
00:39:33,350 --> 00:39:26,010
of it it's a Marine base out in the

785
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:33,360
desert near Victorville and I I still

786
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:36,690
can't even if I wrote it down I'm sure I

787
00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:39,330
would lose the note where I wrote it but

788
00:39:46,130 --> 00:39:42,600
it it seemed like a military base

789
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:46,140
I'm just not no longer certain that it

790
00:39:54,350 --> 00:39:51,510
would be edwards and in in describing

791
00:39:57,770 --> 00:39:54,360
these early age experiences of course

792
00:40:02,570 --> 00:39:57,780
you were I guess 16 at the time of the

793
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:02,580
memory in 1970 and to clarify was this a

794
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,250
memory that you recall having at that

795
00:40:09,740 --> 00:40:07,680
time at that age in 1970 you remember

796
00:40:13,180 --> 00:40:09,750
this happening then or did it emerge

797
00:40:16,610 --> 00:40:13,190
later I don't know I read always

798
00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:16,620
remembered I just couldn't make sense of

799
00:40:23,060 --> 00:40:20,190
it because I'd have to be in two places

800
00:40:29,870 --> 00:40:23,070
at the same time and on more than one

801
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:29,880
occasion beginning when I was about 6 or

802
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:35,970
7 years old I would remember for example

803
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:39,510
being at school in the classroom sitting

804
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:46,130
at the desk but at the same time I'd be

805
00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:49,710
seeing another place and hearing other

806
00:40:59,660 --> 00:40:53,700
people talking to me and they were kind

807
00:41:02,360 --> 00:40:59,670
of transparent and I tried to get myself

808
00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:02,370
certified as crazy because I thought it

809
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:09,030
was insane but I'm not you know I had

810
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:12,480
the MMPI and all kinds of stuff and I'd

811
00:41:22,210 --> 00:41:19,730
never come out as crazy just very hyper

812
00:41:27,220 --> 00:41:22,220
although I'm not near as hyperactive as

813
00:41:30,250 --> 00:41:27,230
my child was food so even that even

814
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,260
though you you entertain multiple

815
00:41:35,020 --> 00:41:32,480
possibilities about the nature of this

816
00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:35,030
experience that that that the these

817
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:37,160
people seem to communicate the idea to

818
00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:40,720
you that they were a more advanced

819
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:45,310
civilization how long did this did these

820
00:41:56,140 --> 00:41:49,330
types of experiences continue on past

821
00:42:01,450 --> 00:41:56,150
your meeting of Phil I think they pretty

822
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:01,460
much ended in the mid-1990s when I was

823
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:09,410
in my forties I I had always been sort

824
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:13,280
of religious but I started using things

825
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:16,400
I learned from listening to Art Bell

826
00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:19,690
interviewing father Malachy Martin about

827
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:23,150
exorcisms and I figured I didn't need to

828
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:25,609
be a priest I didn't even need to be

829
00:42:34,330 --> 00:42:28,010
Catholic I just needed to know what to

830
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:34,340
say to make him go away yeah I remember

831
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:37,490
in in your your works your writings that

832
00:42:43,930 --> 00:42:40,880
you've you've talked about invoking the

833
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:43,940
name Jesus Christ it to deal with what

834
00:42:47,830 --> 00:42:46,250
you'd categorized as demons but you're

835
00:42:54,310 --> 00:42:47,840
saying that that also worked with these

836
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:54,320
other more human-like beings well I'm

837
00:42:58,599 --> 00:42:56,720
not positive but they haven't been

838
00:43:03,720 --> 00:42:58,609
bothering me I think they actually

839
00:43:06,580 --> 00:43:03,730
dropped me from whatever program it was

840
00:43:15,310 --> 00:43:06,590
while I was still in high school because

841
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:15,320
I was just not cooperating they told me

842
00:43:24,730 --> 00:43:21,010
they were dropping me when I was 16 and

843
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:24,740
I think maybe they did but I'll bet they

844
00:43:30,910 --> 00:43:28,340
still follow me around but they don't

845
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:30,920
bother me anymore well now a Tessa

846
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:34,110
didn't I think you described it

847
00:43:41,370 --> 00:43:36,880
conversations with philip k dick

848
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:41,380
in a series of experiences that Philip

849
00:43:49,350 --> 00:43:43,710
had where he was hearing voices

850
00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:49,360
transmitting over the radio yes I also

851
00:43:55,350 --> 00:43:52,300
heard the radio but I just heard popular

852
00:44:00,300 --> 00:43:55,360
music he heard them talking to him and

853
00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:00,310
telling him to die so when he had his

854
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:03,480
pink light experience it was a form of

855
00:44:13,290 --> 00:44:07,900
salvation literal salvation saved this

856
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:13,300
life he was so depressed that that

857
00:44:20,610 --> 00:44:16,240
having the radio tell him to die really

858
00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:20,620
could have pushed him to suicide but at

859
00:44:27,470 --> 00:44:23,830
least on one occasion the voices from

860
00:44:30,270 --> 00:44:27,480
the radio saved your son's life correct

861
00:44:34,410 --> 00:44:30,280
well though that wasn't from the radio

862
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:34,420
it was after we took the radio into the

863
00:44:40,590 --> 00:44:37,690
broom closet and we didn't hear the

864
00:44:45,660 --> 00:44:40,600
radio anymore he actually heard voices

865
00:44:48,450 --> 00:44:45,670
in his head but I couldn't say that he

866
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:48,460
was you know just hallucinating because

867
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:53,710
of the content he got up he was always

868
00:45:00,090 --> 00:44:56,650
taking naps he was also physically ill

869
00:45:03,090 --> 00:45:00,100
and we didn't really understand what was

870
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:03,100
wrong but he was ill and took a lot of

871
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:08,800
naps but he got up from a nap and he

872
00:45:13,590 --> 00:45:11,050
appeared to be in a trance I really

873
00:45:16,170 --> 00:45:13,600
don't think he was fully conscious and

874
00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:16,180
he just said call the doctor and tell

875
00:45:23,820 --> 00:45:19,390
him that our son hasn't in granel hernia

876
00:45:26,580 --> 00:45:23,830
and then he went back to bed now he made

877
00:45:28,830 --> 00:45:26,590
a big deal out of it in his novels that

878
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:28,840
you need to keep in mind that those are

879
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:32,110
fiction he's a storyteller

880
00:45:39,540 --> 00:45:36,490
and he told great stories but they're

881
00:45:47,359 --> 00:45:39,550
embellished and exaggerated versions of

882
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:47,369
what actually happened anyway our

883
00:45:54,109 --> 00:45:50,400
I did called the doctor and now our son

884
00:45:56,660 --> 00:45:54,119
did have an inguinal hernia but he

885
00:45:59,799 --> 00:45:56,670
wasn't old enough to have the surgery to

886
00:46:06,109 --> 00:45:59,809
correct it so we had to make sure that

887
00:46:07,009 --> 00:46:06,119
that baby did not cry and he was a

888
00:46:10,130 --> 00:46:07,019
screamer

889
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:10,140
we had to keep him quiet for months

890
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:14,490
before he was 18 months old and he could

891
00:46:23,499 --> 00:46:17,450
have the surgery to correct the hernia

892
00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:23,509
because it his screaming and crying

893
00:46:31,099 --> 00:46:28,440
caused a hernia to get worse and if it

894
00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:31,109
got strangulated then his life would be

895
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:34,920
in danger but there was no emergency

896
00:46:42,259 --> 00:46:39,839
room we went to a specialist and the

897
00:46:49,009 --> 00:46:42,269
specialist tripped our doctor a new one

898
00:46:53,059 --> 00:46:49,019
for not catching it sooner everything

899
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:53,069
turned out fine I wonder if perhaps then

900
00:46:56,989 --> 00:46:54,450
that might have been a different type of

901
00:47:00,140 --> 00:46:56,999
experience and then some of the other

902
00:47:01,609 --> 00:47:00,150
phenomena but all right well we're gonna

903
00:47:03,859 --> 00:47:01,619
we're gonna we're gonna have to

904
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:03,869
interrupt you right now because we are

905
00:47:08,210 --> 00:47:05,970
coming up to our top of the hour break

906
00:47:10,999 --> 00:47:08,220
well can you do this conversation when

907
00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:11,009
we come back though you're listening to

908
00:47:15,470 --> 00:47:12,900
exploring the bizarre and our guests

909
00:47:22,810 --> 00:47:15,480
tonight are smiles lewis and tessa dick

910
00:47:22,820 --> 00:47:27,590
[Music]

911
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:31,890
explore the bazaars are your e-ticket

912
00:47:37,830 --> 00:47:34,560
ride into the world of the paranormal

913
00:47:42,140 --> 00:47:37,840
strap yourself in as we traverse the

914
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:42,150
universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

915
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:47,290
ghosts Lost Worlds cryptozoology as well

916
00:47:55,890 --> 00:47:51,010
as other dimensions it's time to take

917
00:47:59,160 --> 00:47:55,900
back the night now your electrifying

918
00:48:07,560 --> 00:47:59,170
hosts of exploring the bizarre Timothy

919
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:07,570
Begley and team sports man welcome back

920
00:48:13,590 --> 00:48:10,480
to exploring the bizarre tonight we are

921
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:13,600
talking with smiles lewis and tessa dick

922
00:48:19,410 --> 00:48:16,690
and smiles before I let you continue

923
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:19,420
your conversation with Tess I just

924
00:48:32,010 --> 00:48:28,740
misleading about the the radio and it's

925
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:32,020
a mysterious and disturbing messages now

926
00:48:42,030 --> 00:48:38,050
in some of Phil's books he said that

927
00:48:44,940 --> 00:48:42,040
this radio wasn't even turned on or or

928
00:48:51,690 --> 00:48:44,950
even plugged in now was this true or is

929
00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:51,700
this an embellishment that was true so

930
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:53,440
in other words this this radio was

931
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:55,930
broadcasting play music you know to you

932
00:49:02,700 --> 00:48:59,680
and and and verbal messages to him but

933
00:49:08,370 --> 00:49:02,710
without any powers apparent power source

934
00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:08,380
right but you know if there's enough of

935
00:49:15,930 --> 00:49:11,110
a charge in the air whether it's a

936
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:15,940
microwave radiation or a strong radio

937
00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:21,010
signal it can make a radio play it can

938
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:24,790
even play on some people's dental work

939
00:49:30,660 --> 00:49:28,000
and this was you know back in the days

940
00:49:32,910 --> 00:49:30,670
when even though it was solid-state it

941
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:32,920
did have huge mm-hm

942
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:38,410
I remember what was it that I think an

943
00:49:40,750 --> 00:49:40,210
urban legend with was that Lucille Ball

944
00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:40,760
said

945
00:49:45,790 --> 00:49:44,240
she was receiving radio broadcast on her

946
00:49:47,350 --> 00:49:45,800
fillings one time course who knows if

947
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:47,360
that's true or whether that she was just

948
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:52,000
joking or not it does sometimes happen

949
00:50:01,900 --> 00:49:57,650
not just on Gilligan's Island oh well

950
00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:01,910
you know I know that when I was working

951
00:50:10,180 --> 00:50:07,790
in Indianapolis the the video camera

952
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:10,190
setup that I was using that was called

953
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:12,110
Eng unit you know electronic

954
00:50:19,090 --> 00:50:14,090
newsgathering and there would be a

955
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:19,100
certain spot in that city that when I

956
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:21,710
would be using a plugged in microphone

957
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:22,970
this was you know microphone that was

958
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:26,480
wired and and plugged into the camera it

959
00:50:31,870 --> 00:50:29,810
would start receiving a local radio

960
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:31,880
station but she had to be in this

961
00:50:36,220 --> 00:50:34,610
certain area for that to happen I mean I

962
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:36,230
don't know if the transmitter was fairly

963
00:50:41,590 --> 00:50:38,570
close by and you know it's just the

964
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:41,600
perfect resonance but we just always

965
00:50:46,750 --> 00:50:43,970
thought that that that was kind of weird

966
00:50:49,570 --> 00:50:46,760
but okay smiles I'll I'll let you I'll

967
00:50:52,180 --> 00:50:49,580
let you continue your conversation here

968
00:50:54,940 --> 00:50:52,190
well all of those things intrigued me

969
00:50:58,270 --> 00:50:54,950
because of course Tessa in her books

970
00:51:01,090 --> 00:50:58,280
talks about those ideas as being some of

971
00:51:05,140 --> 00:51:01,100
the things that she and Phil explored as

972
00:51:07,630 --> 00:51:05,150
possible explanations either from this

973
00:51:11,110 --> 00:51:07,640
idea of microwave energy and other ways

974
00:51:13,390 --> 00:51:11,120
of of sending signals to electronic

975
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:13,400
speakers radios that aren't even plugged

976
00:51:19,740 --> 00:51:15,410
in don't have power but can still

977
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:19,750
receive energy and and it transmitted

978
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:22,610
but as I was saying before the break it

979
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:25,730
almost it's it's very difficult often as

980
00:51:29,860 --> 00:51:27,440
it is in so many of these strange

981
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:29,870
phenomena to weed not wheat from chaff

982
00:51:33,730 --> 00:51:31,850
so much is just to try to parse the

983
00:51:36,460 --> 00:51:33,740
different types of experiences and

984
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:36,470
possible explanations it it all sounds

985
00:51:41,230 --> 00:51:39,110
like okay if you--if we do entertain you

986
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:41,240
know a mind control or some kind of

987
00:51:48,340 --> 00:51:44,810
covert psychotronic aspect to Phil's

988
00:51:53,090 --> 00:51:48,350
experiences in this particular the

989
00:52:00,620 --> 00:51:56,270
the case of that I was mentioning of a

990
00:52:04,340 --> 00:52:00,630
voice or inside his head mentioning the

991
00:52:06,860 --> 00:52:04,350
hernia you know could just perhaps be an

992
00:52:09,770 --> 00:52:06,870
example of innate psychic ability that

993
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:09,780
may be in his altered state of pain

994
00:52:17,060 --> 00:52:14,400
induced or whatnot was was tuning him

995
00:52:19,610 --> 00:52:17,070
into the you know the matrix underlying

996
00:52:21,830 --> 00:52:19,620
everything and he in that instance you

997
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:21,840
know got that message from the universe

998
00:52:28,780 --> 00:52:26,610
that that or God or valise or zebra that

999
00:52:35,330 --> 00:52:28,790
there was you know this specific

1000
00:52:38,450 --> 00:52:35,340
situation with your your son and it it's

1001
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:38,460
it's that multiplicity of possibilities

1002
00:52:43,580 --> 00:52:41,490
that I have always struggled with and

1003
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:43,590
obviously experiencers of all varieties

1004
00:52:47,690 --> 00:52:45,510
struggle with especially the more

1005
00:52:50,690 --> 00:52:47,700
intelligent ones like yourself and and

1006
00:52:55,220 --> 00:52:50,700
Phil who were able to see all the

1007
00:52:57,230 --> 00:52:55,230
multiple possibilities so Tessa I guess

1008
00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:57,240
I there's again so many people

1009
00:53:02,630 --> 00:52:58,880
directions I want to go in but

1010
00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:02,640
specifically with regard to the the

1011
00:53:12,140 --> 00:53:07,740
radio weirdness was that before or after

1012
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:12,150
y'all noticed the moving truck and and

1013
00:53:17,450 --> 00:53:15,210
workers and coveralls bringing in that

1014
00:53:20,630 --> 00:53:17,460
mysterious electronic equipment you

1015
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:20,640
found in the apartment next door

1016
00:53:35,660 --> 00:53:30,410
well the radio began before then but the

1017
00:53:37,850 --> 00:53:35,670
voices in his head began after that so

1018
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:37,860
perhaps there was something more

1019
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:44,450
portable to begin with and then then the

1020
00:53:54,770 --> 00:53:49,170
electronics next door somehow got into

1021
00:53:57,590 --> 00:53:54,780
his head and you know the CIA pretty

1022
00:54:02,870 --> 00:53:57,600
much admitted during the Iraq war that

1023
00:54:06,050 --> 00:54:02,880
they used voice of God technology to get

1024
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:06,060
voices to tell the Iraqi soldiers to lay

1025
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:11,130
down their guns and surrender yeah and

1026
00:54:15,500 --> 00:54:13,440
it's that kind of technology that has

1027
00:54:18,820 --> 00:54:15,510
fascinated me for so long because it

1028
00:54:21,620 --> 00:54:18,830
really complicates the the nature of

1029
00:54:24,050 --> 00:54:21,630
what people think of as UFO encounters

1030
00:54:26,090 --> 00:54:24,060
or even just paranormal phenomenon there

1031
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:26,100
so there's so many ways that that could

1032
00:54:33,290 --> 00:54:30,450
be used to deceive people but again I

1033
00:54:37,070 --> 00:54:33,300
you know with the example of the hernia

1034
00:54:39,170 --> 00:54:37,080
you know the if that was human generated

1035
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:39,180
the message in his head that that spoke

1036
00:54:43,370 --> 00:54:40,770
of that then it would they would need to

1037
00:54:45,650 --> 00:54:43,380
have have some knowledge somehow of the

1038
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:45,660
child's condition and so that's why I

1039
00:54:49,700 --> 00:54:47,310
was thinking maybe that's just more

1040
00:54:52,130 --> 00:54:49,710
indicative of an innate psychic ability

1041
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:52,140
and and certainly in your own childhood

1042
00:54:58,610 --> 00:54:54,720
you had a number of experiences that

1043
00:55:01,550 --> 00:54:58,620
would seem to intimate either contact

1044
00:55:04,970 --> 00:55:01,560
with possibly some kind of you know

1045
00:55:06,650 --> 00:55:04,980
MKULTRA like you know you refer to the

1046
00:55:11,810 --> 00:55:06,660
longitudinal studies that both of you

1047
00:55:13,850 --> 00:55:11,820
apparently had been enlisted in but it

1048
00:55:18,010 --> 00:55:13,860
could also have a more traditional

1049
00:55:22,670 --> 00:55:18,020
paranormal or spiritual or psychic

1050
00:55:24,430 --> 00:55:22,680
interpretation you talk of your

1051
00:55:27,860 --> 00:55:24,440
experience with guardian angels and

1052
00:55:31,970 --> 00:55:27,870
voices that would help you through your

1053
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:31,980
life your early life and perceptions of

1054
00:55:38,730 --> 00:55:34,090
things that most people would regard

1055
00:55:40,830 --> 00:55:38,740
hauntings or and spirits I'm wondering

1056
00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:40,840
if you can give us more of a sense of I

1057
00:55:45,690 --> 00:55:43,510
guess your psychic life so to speak and

1058
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:45,700
did you did you consider yourself to be

1059
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:48,400
a psychic sensitive in the classic sense

1060
00:55:56,910 --> 00:55:51,250
or would you describe that to some other

1061
00:55:59,940 --> 00:55:56,920
type of spirituality well first it was

1062
00:56:06,860 --> 00:55:59,950
more like a smorgasbord it was not any

1063
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:06,870
one thing but some psychic events um

1064
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:14,290
quite human mind control program and you

1065
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:20,490
know just a little of everything but I

1066
00:56:28,380 --> 00:56:24,160
suppose it is not uncommon for a young

1067
00:56:31,650 --> 00:56:28,390
child to have an imaginary friend mine

1068
00:56:35,690 --> 00:56:31,660
happened to be an angel but I was still

1069
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:35,700
seeing him till I was 9 years old and

1070
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:39,370
shortly before my baby sister was born

1071
00:56:44,820 --> 00:56:42,130
he told me he wouldn't talk to me

1072
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:44,830
anymore because people would think I was

1073
00:56:56,970 --> 00:56:52,210
crazy that he quit talking to me and did

1074
00:57:03,720 --> 00:56:56,980
anyway he might have been imaginary but

1075
00:57:05,540 --> 00:57:03,730
he was real to me did that do you tend

1076
00:57:10,290 --> 00:57:05,550
to think of those as being more likely

1077
00:57:16,580 --> 00:57:10,300
indicative of a psychic ability for you

1078
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:16,590
personally hmm perhaps I do know that

1079
00:57:23,820 --> 00:57:21,040
you know I have clear memories of him

1080
00:57:27,060 --> 00:57:23,830
talking to me when I was 2 years old and

1081
00:57:27,770 --> 00:57:27,070
it was just common sense daily stuff

1082
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:27,780
nothing

1083
00:57:35,910 --> 00:57:33,040
loulou or mystical it was just like oh

1084
00:57:38,730 --> 00:57:35,920
your dad's home now you better get out

1085
00:57:40,970 --> 00:57:38,740
of his chair so he can sit down that

1086
00:57:43,260 --> 00:57:40,980
kind of thing

1087
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:43,270
yeah that that strikes me is more

1088
00:57:47,289 --> 00:57:46,210
traditionally psychic I in the beginning

1089
00:57:49,929 --> 00:57:47,299
of the show I will

1090
00:57:52,659 --> 00:57:49,939
mentioning my own personal experiences

1091
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:52,669
that I ascribe as being psychic but they

1092
00:57:56,999 --> 00:57:54,559
weren't they were very mundane everyday

1093
00:57:59,259 --> 00:57:57,009
kinds of things they weren't you know

1094
00:58:04,329 --> 00:57:59,269
visions of earthquakes or natural

1095
00:58:08,289 --> 00:58:04,339
disasters necessarily well within those

1096
00:58:10,929 --> 00:58:08,299
family where I was growing up we often

1097
00:58:16,899 --> 00:58:10,939
just knew things without saying them out

1098
00:58:19,329 --> 00:58:16,909
loud exactly you know you can't just or

1099
00:58:22,929 --> 00:58:19,339
at least I can't go around and read your

1100
00:58:26,649 --> 00:58:22,939
mind and pull things out but I have

1101
00:58:30,999 --> 00:58:26,659
noticed that if people are thinking at

1102
00:58:35,159 --> 00:58:31,009
me hard enough I do pick up on it now I

1103
00:58:38,289 --> 00:58:35,169
don't try to it's disturbing

1104
00:58:41,819 --> 00:58:38,299
well I think and also when you're one of

1105
00:58:44,349 --> 00:58:41,829
your books you mentioned I forget the

1106
00:58:46,809 --> 00:58:44,359
psychiatrist name who is working with

1107
00:58:48,969 --> 00:58:46,819
schizophrenics and and was trying to

1108
00:58:50,799 --> 00:58:48,979
test his his hypothesis that that

1109
00:58:52,809 --> 00:58:50,809
schizophrenics that the voices and

1110
00:58:55,899 --> 00:58:52,819
perceptions that they were experiencing

1111
00:58:59,709 --> 00:58:55,909
may in fact have been related to some

1112
00:59:01,779 --> 00:58:59,719
form of telepathy and why I'm not trying

1113
00:59:04,569 --> 00:59:01,789
to say that you that you were

1114
00:59:07,689 --> 00:59:04,579
schizophrenic I think there are a lot of

1115
00:59:11,919 --> 00:59:07,699
creative types that that walk that line

1116
00:59:15,179 --> 00:59:11,929
and may have a thinner thinner veil with

1117
00:59:19,179 --> 00:59:15,189
the other side that information realms I

1118
00:59:24,729 --> 00:59:19,189
try to shut it off that was Harry

1119
00:59:27,129 --> 00:59:24,739
Oh Harry stack Sullivan he actually

1120
00:59:31,749 --> 00:59:27,139
deliberately went around the ward where

1121
00:59:36,489 --> 00:59:31,759
the paranoid people were and he would

1122
00:59:39,339 --> 00:59:36,499
just think violent thoughts toward them

1123
00:59:42,219 --> 00:59:39,349
or or call them names without saying it

1124
00:59:44,620 --> 00:59:42,229
out loud and the patients would walk up

1125
00:59:50,859 --> 00:59:44,630
to him and repeat word for word what he

1126
00:59:52,389 --> 00:59:50,869
had been thinking so maybe we ought to

1127
00:59:57,250 --> 00:59:52,399
pay attention to that

1128
01:00:02,110 --> 00:59:57,260
I just don't can't can't can't

1129
01:00:06,490 --> 01:00:02,120
with with psychic phenomena there

1130
01:00:11,410 --> 01:00:06,500
they're too weird so I try not to let

1131
01:00:15,930 --> 01:00:11,420
them happen right well and you you you

1132
01:00:20,580 --> 01:00:15,940
talk about how you and and Phil

1133
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:22,720
implications of mind control and

1134
01:00:27,490 --> 01:00:25,760
psychotronic technology that he that he

1135
01:00:29,650 --> 01:00:27,500
was particularly concerned at at some

1136
01:00:32,380 --> 01:00:29,660
point he kind of seemed obsessed with

1137
01:00:34,540 --> 01:00:32,390
the film and turian candidate which I

1138
01:00:37,260 --> 01:00:34,550
forget but I think it would this that

1139
01:00:39,820 --> 01:00:37,270
movie came out before the MKULTRA

1140
01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:39,830
documents were made public the programs

1141
01:00:47,830 --> 01:00:43,910
were made public and it came out shortly

1142
01:00:50,140 --> 01:00:47,840
before the JFK assassination and that's

1143
01:00:53,970 --> 01:00:50,150
why it was pulled from theaters and

1144
01:00:59,980 --> 01:00:53,980
never shown on television until the late

1145
01:01:06,310 --> 01:00:59,990
1970s because it was too much like the

1146
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:06,320
JFK assassination yeah so I had never

1147
01:01:12,100 --> 01:01:09,650
seen it and he didn't explain it to me

1148
01:01:14,110 --> 01:01:12,110
were you were you with with regard to

1149
01:01:16,210 --> 01:01:14,120
the discovered the discovery of the

1150
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:16,220
electronic equipment next door did that

1151
01:01:23,260 --> 01:01:18,490
that added to though this this sense of

1152
01:01:30,060 --> 01:01:23,270
possible manipulation yes I thought it

1153
01:01:33,940 --> 01:01:30,070
was Blacky time for the squirt gun I

1154
01:01:37,660 --> 01:01:33,950
have to do a channel channel channeling

1155
01:01:40,990 --> 01:01:37,670
from the animal animal kingdom yeah

1156
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:41,000
Blacky do I have to you squit spritz

1157
01:01:49,450 --> 01:01:46,210
your face yeah I did okay she's good

1158
01:01:52,510 --> 01:01:49,460
well he's been fed and petted and

1159
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:52,520
brushed and had her treats and fret a

1160
01:01:58,180 --> 01:01:54,650
fresh bowl of water so she has no

1161
01:02:01,240 --> 01:01:58,190
business meowing at me because I'm

1162
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:01,250
allowed to talk that's better than the

1163
01:02:09,610 --> 01:02:06,530
good rest of the gasket hey Tess I have

1164
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:09,620
a question here many questions but one

1165
01:02:12,910 --> 01:02:11,210
in particular now

1166
01:02:17,260 --> 01:02:12,920
we've written about and you did the

1167
01:02:20,460 --> 01:02:17,270
introduction to the book on the matrix

1168
01:02:24,010 --> 01:02:20,470
and philip k dick he talked about a

1169
01:02:26,020 --> 01:02:24,020
computer simulation that we were living

1170
01:02:29,830 --> 01:02:26,030
in a computer simulation as early as

1171
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:29,840
1977 well certainly most people didn't

1172
01:02:35,820 --> 01:02:33,530
have a computer in 1977 did he have one

1173
01:02:39,790 --> 01:02:35,830
and and what did he think about the

1174
01:02:41,650 --> 01:02:39,800
development of the computer and do you

1175
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:41,660
think he would have thought that it was

1176
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:43,490
possible that we would be doing all that

1177
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:46,970
we do today on our computer Oh

1178
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:50,210
still never had a computer he never even

1179
01:03:01,360 --> 01:02:55,760
had an electric typewriter he did plan

1180
01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:01,370
to record all his vinyl LPs onto

1181
01:03:10,620 --> 01:03:04,510
reel-to-reel tapes but he never did it

1182
01:03:16,740 --> 01:03:10,630
but he really liked the analog

1183
01:03:21,850 --> 01:03:16,750
technology and it does have advantages

1184
01:03:26,350 --> 01:03:21,860
over digital I have records that my

1185
01:03:29,050 --> 01:03:26,360
record player quit working and I have a

1186
01:03:32,350 --> 01:03:29,060
turntable that I should hook up to the

1187
01:03:36,970 --> 01:03:32,360
amplifier but I don't have speakers for

1188
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:36,980
it so I'm stuck with digital for now

1189
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:40,510
well then how did he get how did he get

1190
01:03:46,750 --> 01:03:44,170
hooked on the idea about this computer

1191
01:03:51,030 --> 01:03:46,760
simulation and suppose we were living in

1192
01:03:55,390 --> 01:03:51,040
Oh simple he read about artificial

1193
01:03:58,630 --> 01:03:55,400
intelligence for example I think it was

1194
01:04:06,460 --> 01:03:58,640
Psychology Today had a feature article

1195
01:04:09,370 --> 01:04:06,470
on the eliza program it was not a voice

1196
01:04:14,380 --> 01:04:09,380
it would type you would type in

1197
01:04:18,100 --> 01:04:14,390
questions and the computer that you

1198
01:04:21,610 --> 01:04:18,110
couldn't see would type answers that you

1199
01:04:24,940 --> 01:04:21,620
would see on your computer screen and it

1200
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:24,950
was pretending to be a psycho therapist

1201
01:04:32,979 --> 01:04:27,970
and some people thought that they were

1202
01:04:36,970 --> 01:04:32,989
communicating with a human but Elijah

1203
01:04:43,539 --> 01:04:36,980
you know after Eliza Doolittle in my

1204
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:43,549
fair lady or Pygmalion it was actually a

1205
01:04:51,729 --> 01:04:48,170
very primitive form of AI but it did

1206
01:04:57,970 --> 01:04:51,739
fool some people and and Phil was always

1207
01:05:02,769 --> 01:04:57,980
into the illusions that can fool us into

1208
01:05:05,499 --> 01:05:02,779
thinking that they're real and I believe

1209
01:05:07,359 --> 01:05:05,509
he delivered that famous speech at a

1210
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:07,369
conference a science fiction conference

1211
01:05:17,079 --> 01:05:15,410
in France I think it was 77 and and you

1212
01:05:20,739 --> 01:05:17,089
you write about how there were a number

1213
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:20,749
of French students and and film makers

1214
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:23,170
who were coming to interview him and

1215
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:26,450
certainly you know the the work of Jean

1216
01:05:31,569 --> 01:05:29,359
Baudrillard and this idea of simulation

1217
01:05:33,759 --> 01:05:31,579
and simulacra that's you know one of the

1218
01:05:38,049 --> 01:05:33,769
main themes and his work is how do you

1219
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:38,059
know what is real and this you know some

1220
01:05:44,380 --> 01:05:40,130
of the leading research in the

1221
01:05:47,650 --> 01:05:44,390
parapsychological realm deals with what

1222
01:05:49,690 --> 01:05:47,660
are called meta korok experiences the

1223
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:49,700
the complete replacement of one's

1224
01:05:57,009 --> 01:05:53,210
perceptual field with a hallucination I

1225
01:06:00,069 --> 01:05:57,019
I think just his the the themes that he

1226
01:06:03,279 --> 01:06:00,079
was dealing with of of what is real and

1227
01:06:06,660 --> 01:06:03,289
and the nature of a simulated reality I

1228
01:06:09,849 --> 01:06:06,670
mean the experiences he had where he

1229
01:06:11,319 --> 01:06:09,859
described the overlay and actually akin

1230
01:06:13,210 --> 01:06:11,329
to some of your childhood experiences

1231
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:13,220
that you described of being feeling like

1232
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:15,650
you're in two places at once perhaps

1233
01:06:22,809 --> 01:06:18,650
that was what led him to this ability to

1234
01:06:26,109 --> 01:06:22,819
conceptualize this idea that we could be

1235
01:06:29,090 --> 01:06:26,119
living in a simulation in novel after

1236
01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:29,100
novel story after story

1237
01:06:33,620 --> 01:06:31,110
- name - in which this prior ugly

1238
01:06:36,980 --> 01:06:33,630
present obtained most clearly eyesight

1239
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:36,990
the man in the high castle and my 1974

1240
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:39,090
novel about the US as a police state

1241
01:06:46,610 --> 01:06:41,370
called flow my tears the policeman said

1242
01:06:50,510 --> 01:06:46,620
could be and he had some experiences

1243
01:06:54,380 --> 01:06:50,520
that might seem trivial but for example

1244
01:06:57,550 --> 01:06:54,390
when he came home one evening to a dark

1245
01:07:00,230 --> 01:06:57,560
house and couldn't find the light switch

1246
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:00,240
instead of concluding that he had

1247
01:07:04,910 --> 01:07:02,010
forgotten where it was

1248
01:07:12,020 --> 01:07:04,920
he concluded that someone had moved it

1249
01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:12,030
while he was gone and so he wrote a

1250
01:07:18,650 --> 01:07:14,880
story about it more than one story but

1251
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:18,660
the one that comes to mind is when I'm

1252
01:07:28,790 --> 01:07:22,130
blank on it there was a movie about it -

1253
01:07:31,310 --> 01:07:28,800
not reconstruction it's the one that the

1254
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:31,320
movie has the word bureau in the title

1255
01:07:34,580 --> 01:07:33,210
but that's not the name of the that's

1256
01:07:36,460 --> 01:07:34,590
not the way that he used it in the short

1257
01:07:39,860 --> 01:07:36,470
story

1258
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:39,870
adjustment Adjustment Bureau adjustment

1259
01:07:49,340 --> 01:07:46,650
team yes yeah yeah that that interview

1260
01:07:52,970 --> 01:07:49,350
rather that that speech he gave is just

1261
01:08:01,160 --> 01:07:52,980
absolutely amazing and especially its

1262
01:08:05,110 --> 01:08:01,170
time their impression didn't see himself

1263
01:08:08,930 --> 01:08:05,120
as foreseeing the future so much as

1264
01:08:13,910 --> 01:08:08,940
describing the real world we didn't

1265
01:08:18,830 --> 01:08:13,920
think of these weird things as you know

1266
01:08:27,980 --> 01:08:18,840
just fantasy they were a form of reality

1267
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:27,990
that is hidden from us so you know I'm

1268
01:08:33,790 --> 01:08:29,850
sorry smiles go ahead oh well

1269
01:08:37,070 --> 01:08:33,800
so I I've I've heard you Tessa

1270
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:37,080
given an alternate explanation perhaps

1271
01:08:43,849 --> 01:08:39,690
to his infamous

1272
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:43,859
pink beam Valles experiences and it all

1273
01:08:49,039 --> 01:08:46,880
it it seems that you're not not just

1274
01:08:50,900 --> 01:08:49,049
pooh-poohing it or writing it off but

1275
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:50,910
you you give a much more mundane

1276
01:09:01,670 --> 01:08:57,359
explanation for that can you expound on

1277
01:09:04,579 --> 01:09:01,680
on whether you feel that that that

1278
01:09:10,780 --> 01:09:04,589
experience has any sort of metaphysical

1279
01:09:13,660 --> 01:09:10,790
basis versus just him you know having

1280
01:09:17,329 --> 01:09:13,670
some mundane experience that he then

1281
01:09:20,979 --> 01:09:17,339
extrapolated this this whole series of

1282
01:09:26,289 --> 01:09:20,989
the the vast exegesis that he wrote oh

1283
01:09:30,079 --> 01:09:26,299
no he had real mystical experiences

1284
01:09:33,950 --> 01:09:30,089
pretty much throughout his life and he

1285
01:09:37,099 --> 01:09:33,960
wanted them to be more dramatic so he

1286
01:09:40,939 --> 01:09:37,109
did exaggerate and embellish but they

1287
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:40,949
were quite real and quite unusual to say

1288
01:09:49,070 --> 01:09:45,449
the least he really was in contact with

1289
01:09:54,650 --> 01:09:49,080
something I'm just not sure that it was

1290
01:09:57,410 --> 01:09:54,660
the good guys I think what what first

1291
01:10:04,630 --> 01:09:57,420
contacted him on the radio definitely

1292
01:10:10,189 --> 01:10:04,640
meant him harm and then somehow a more

1293
01:10:15,470 --> 01:10:10,199
calm and kind voice managed to reach him

1294
01:10:17,540 --> 01:10:15,480
and and save him from harm might si

1295
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:17,550
needed erupted you hear because we're

1296
01:10:21,100 --> 01:10:19,290
going to our bottom of the hour break so

1297
01:10:24,110 --> 01:10:21,110
when we come back we will continue our

1298
01:10:26,890 --> 01:10:24,120
conversation with Tessa Dec so stay

1299
01:10:33,590 --> 01:10:31,010
now back to exploring the bazaar with

1300
01:10:36,590 --> 01:10:33,600
two of the most electrifying researchers

1301
01:10:42,790 --> 01:10:36,600
in the Paranoid your hosts Timothy

1302
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:42,800
Rebecca Lee and Taylor Swift's all right

1303
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:45,210
welcome back to exploring the bizarre

1304
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:48,890
and Tim you know it it just seems like

1305
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:51,920
whenever we reach this time we're at the

1306
01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:54,510
less than a half hour left in the show

1307
01:10:58,939 --> 01:10:57,360
and it just seems like we've just got

1308
01:11:03,070 --> 01:10:58,949
started the conversations getting

1309
01:11:06,070 --> 01:11:03,080
interested and and then here are

1310
01:11:12,399 --> 01:11:06,080
voice-messaging oh goodness

1311
01:11:17,180 --> 01:11:12,409
but I wanted to ask smiles and then

1312
01:11:22,850 --> 01:11:17,190
Tessa you can bring in on this as well

1313
01:11:29,870 --> 01:11:22,860
but you know listening to Tessa talk

1314
01:11:33,380 --> 01:11:29,880
about Phil especially when he she said

1315
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,390
he had been taking a nap and he he

1316
01:11:37,820 --> 01:11:35,520
basically came up and and you know told

1317
01:11:41,570 --> 01:11:37,830
her almost like in a trance state that

1318
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:41,580
their their son needed needed medical

1319
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:44,400
attention that and some other things to

1320
01:11:52,780 --> 01:11:47,370
me a lot of the stuff that that Phil was

1321
01:11:56,570 --> 01:11:52,790
going through is is very reminiscent to

1322
01:11:59,750 --> 01:11:56,580
shamanistic experiences you know what do

1323
01:12:01,010 --> 01:11:59,760
you think about that smiles I think that

1324
01:12:04,580 --> 01:12:01,020
you could definitely think of him as a

1325
01:12:08,450 --> 01:12:04,590
modern-day shaman

1326
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:08,460
shamanism is is an something that I've

1327
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:10,890
thought of in the context of UFO

1328
01:12:13,820 --> 01:12:12,090
encounters and dealing with the

1329
01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:13,830
paranormal for a long time and I think

1330
01:12:18,890 --> 01:12:16,710
has a lot of relevance to it you know in

1331
01:12:22,610 --> 01:12:18,900
our modern age we really have been cut

1332
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:22,620
off from you know those those people in

1333
01:12:30,050 --> 01:12:26,130
our community who have these abilities

1334
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:30,060
to access this realm of information that

1335
01:12:34,010 --> 01:12:32,010
I think is implied by parapsychological

1336
01:12:36,129 --> 01:12:34,020
data the psychic phenomena that people

1337
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:36,139
have reported throughout human history

1338
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:39,449
and so I that's what I was trying to

1339
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:41,040
imply is that I think that that may be

1340
01:12:43,930 --> 01:12:42,570
you know why he may have been

1341
01:12:48,350 --> 01:12:43,940
experiencing they both may be

1342
01:12:51,260 --> 01:12:48,360
experiencing examples of human generated

1343
01:12:54,020 --> 01:12:51,270
mind-control programs and psychotronic

1344
01:12:55,879 --> 01:12:54,030
technologies I think that the that there

1345
01:12:59,149 --> 01:12:55,889
is also a psychic component here

1346
01:13:02,360 --> 01:12:59,159
possibly that that might be a perfect

1347
01:13:04,850 --> 01:13:02,370
indicator of this this tapping into the

1348
01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:04,860
vast under wiring of the universe and

1349
01:13:09,820 --> 01:13:06,510
the the ability of the human

1350
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:09,830
consciousness to access information

1351
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:12,239
because that's all we really that's all

1352
01:13:17,870 --> 01:13:15,810
it all is energy information that we

1353
01:13:21,189 --> 01:13:17,880
think of as a physical world and and

1354
01:13:24,470 --> 01:13:21,199
bring that back and have it have a real

1355
01:13:26,899 --> 01:13:24,480
real world value in the saving of the

1356
01:13:30,260 --> 01:13:26,909
physical vessel of the child in this

1357
01:13:33,470 --> 01:13:30,270
case and so I think that is kind of a

1358
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:33,480
modern example of what some might think

1359
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:37,770
of as a cyberpunk shaman back in the

1360
01:13:41,689 --> 01:13:39,530
nineties when I was publishing my zine

1361
01:13:43,879 --> 01:13:41,699
you know Adam go rightly and a good

1362
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:43,889
friend Steven mizdrak who was a budding

1363
01:13:49,189 --> 01:13:47,250
anthropologist both wrote articles about

1364
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:49,199
Phil K dicks experiences in the context

1365
01:13:53,060 --> 01:13:51,210
of mind control but but one of those

1366
01:13:58,459 --> 01:13:53,070
writers that mizerock the anthropologist

1367
01:14:01,879 --> 01:13:58,469
you know talked about Phil as an example

1368
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:01,889
of a the first cyberpunk ufologist

1369
01:14:07,430 --> 01:14:04,770
somebody who was tapping into this these

1370
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:07,440
ideas about the the the the interfacing

1371
01:14:13,879 --> 01:14:10,080
of human consciousness with technology

1372
01:14:17,899 --> 01:14:13,889
as a form of modern shamanism I think

1373
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:17,909
you're spot on there yeah and Tessa I

1374
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:21,120
don't know if you heard my question but

1375
01:14:25,790 --> 01:14:23,449
I basically I was asking whether or not

1376
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:25,800
you know it was under your impression

1377
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:29,610
that some of Phil's experiences were

1378
01:14:37,149 --> 01:14:34,370
reminiscent of shamanistic experiences

1379
01:14:41,270 --> 01:14:37,159
well absolutely

1380
01:14:44,959 --> 01:14:41,280
I'm sorry my I let the phone's battery

1381
01:14:50,450 --> 01:14:44,969
go dead and I had to get it plugged back

1382
01:14:52,730 --> 01:14:50,460
in no problem anyway yeah well this

1383
01:14:58,220 --> 01:14:52,740
smart alec phone is

1384
01:15:04,430 --> 01:14:58,230
smarter than I am anyway so definitely

1385
01:15:07,490 --> 01:15:04,440
was fascinated by shamanism and when I

1386
01:15:15,140 --> 01:15:07,500
first met him he was pretending to be a

1387
01:15:21,070 --> 01:15:15,150
Zen guru it was funny sometimes

1388
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:21,080
I mean amusing not odd but for example

1389
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:23,690
someone would ask him to say something

1390
01:15:33,770 --> 01:15:29,010
Zen and he would either asked what is

1391
01:15:36,500 --> 01:15:33,780
the sound of one hand clapping or he

1392
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:36,510
would say the Buddha is a piece of

1393
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:40,080
toilet paper and that is an actual Zen

1394
01:15:48,170 --> 01:15:43,170
saying but you think who didn't know

1395
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:48,180
that it just seemed like a joke the

1396
01:15:54,310 --> 01:15:51,570
point of it of course is that no human

1397
01:16:00,440 --> 01:15:54,320
being is more important than any other

1398
01:16:03,290 --> 01:16:00,450
so don't worship the Buddha that seemed

1399
01:16:06,580 --> 01:16:03,300
seems like that that's something that

1400
01:16:09,110 --> 01:16:06,590
people want to do I mean always but

1401
01:16:11,210 --> 01:16:09,120
naturally with you know modern society

1402
01:16:18,250 --> 01:16:11,220
that they're just they're looking for

1403
01:16:24,530 --> 01:16:18,260
somebody to worship yeah and it's really

1404
01:16:30,190 --> 01:16:24,540
not a Elsi way to go it's for your

1405
01:16:34,310 --> 01:16:30,200
sanity anyway or like left of mind

1406
01:16:38,930 --> 01:16:34,320
sometimes I really wonder but I tend to

1407
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:38,940
be pragmatic and if it works okay if it

1408
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:50,240
smiles do you have some additional

1409
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:52,650
questions that you'd like to ask Tessa

1410
01:16:59,600 --> 01:16:54,930
oh so so many that we'll never get to

1411
01:17:02,090 --> 01:16:59,610
tonight but I have some questions from a

1412
01:17:06,540 --> 01:17:02,100
friend who's also a very spiritual

1413
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:06,550
person and also a fan of

1414
01:17:12,180 --> 01:17:09,570
Phil's writing both fiction and

1415
01:17:15,390 --> 01:17:12,190
nonfiction if you consider exegesis

1416
01:17:18,540 --> 01:17:15,400
nonfiction you know speaking about the

1417
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:18,550
idea of idolizing you know an individual

1418
01:17:24,870 --> 01:17:21,130
whether they be or just your your

1419
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:24,880
neighbor or your your Congressman you

1420
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:27,130
know I I certainly have idolized fill in

1421
01:17:31,950 --> 01:17:28,810
a lot of ways and I suppose it's

1422
01:17:35,610 --> 01:17:31,960
probably a little awkward for Tessa and

1423
01:17:37,140 --> 01:17:35,620
others who you know the many of us that

1424
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:37,150
call ourselves [\h__\h] either because

1425
01:17:40,770 --> 01:17:38,770
we're just a fan of his fiction or

1426
01:17:43,530 --> 01:17:40,780
because we actually think that there's

1427
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:43,540
something to be gained by analyzing his

1428
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:47,290
his fiction and his nonfiction but this

1429
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:50,050
friend of mine wanted me to ask you

1430
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:52,050
Tessa

1431
01:17:58,530 --> 01:17:55,930
to what extent should the exegesis be

1432
01:18:01,890 --> 01:17:58,540
taken seriously either as psychic

1433
01:18:06,260 --> 01:18:01,900
reality or a meta commentary can we

1434
01:18:11,730 --> 01:18:06,270
learn to live better lives from it oh

1435
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:11,740
wow well I think we can look at it as an

1436
01:18:25,250 --> 01:18:17,250
exploration not an answered by just a

1437
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:25,260
journey into the bizarre and unusual

1438
01:18:36,090 --> 01:18:30,850
that while really strange is also really

1439
01:18:39,210 --> 01:18:36,100
real still didn't make it up out of thin

1440
01:18:44,940 --> 01:18:39,220
air these things really happen to him

1441
01:18:48,330 --> 01:18:44,950
and he really wanted the what they call

1442
01:18:55,790 --> 01:18:48,340
the exegesis now to be just the notes

1443
01:19:01,610 --> 01:18:55,800
for a serious thesis something like a

1444
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:01,620
you know doctoral thesis a real

1445
01:19:12,510 --> 01:19:08,050
scholarly book and of course he never he

1446
01:19:18,490 --> 01:19:12,520
didn't live long enough to organize all

1447
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:18,500
those notes and and this write a paper

1448
01:19:27,430 --> 01:19:22,880
from them so they're very raw because

1449
01:19:33,910 --> 01:19:27,440
they're not his finished writing they're

1450
01:19:38,980 --> 01:19:33,920
not polished at all and I think some of

1451
01:19:41,890 --> 01:19:38,990
them might have disappeared as well I do

1452
01:19:46,110 --> 01:19:41,900
know that what has been published while

1453
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:46,120
nowhere near to being all of it it is

1454
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:51,050
really the meat of his exegesis he had a

1455
01:20:00,070 --> 01:19:55,610
lot of repetition in in his notes but

1456
01:20:02,530 --> 01:20:00,080
they run something like 10,000 pages so

1457
01:20:06,460 --> 01:20:02,540
they couldn't possibly be published as

1458
01:20:09,730 --> 01:20:06,470
one book and why would experiences were

1459
01:20:14,230 --> 01:20:09,740
quite real and when he wrote Crimson's

1460
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:14,240
him way out to him that was reality and

1461
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:17,090
I think he was on to something

1462
01:20:25,780 --> 01:20:23,690
a in fact modern physicists actually

1463
01:20:28,420 --> 01:20:25,790
they're accused of being more religious

1464
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:28,430
than scientific but they're coming to

1465
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:30,170
conclusions that Phil had already

1466
01:20:39,220 --> 01:20:35,410
reached more or less intuitively without

1467
01:20:44,020 --> 01:20:39,230
studying the electrons and protons and

1468
01:20:47,530 --> 01:20:44,030
strings and quartz well in in in reading

1469
01:20:51,970 --> 01:20:47,540
what what's been published from that

1470
01:20:59,140 --> 01:20:51,980
Tessa now can it's it's you know they're

1471
01:21:02,560 --> 01:20:59,150
it's it's so so deeply personal can can

1472
01:21:06,940 --> 01:21:02,570
anybody else take anything away from

1473
01:21:09,730 --> 01:21:06,950
that or is it I mean you know do they

1474
01:21:12,610 --> 01:21:09,740
have to have their own personal

1475
01:21:14,530 --> 01:21:12,620
experiences I mean I don't know if I'm

1476
01:21:18,690 --> 01:21:14,540
explaining that correctly or not but I

1477
01:21:22,090 --> 01:21:18,700
mean you know Phil was writing down his

1478
01:21:26,020 --> 01:21:22,100
personal spiritual journey can that be

1479
01:21:28,150 --> 01:21:26,030
something that that that anybody else

1480
01:21:32,580 --> 01:21:28,160
can read or do they need to take that

1481
01:21:37,229 --> 01:21:32,590
dream walk on their own oh I think it

1482
01:21:40,709 --> 01:21:37,239
just then it might seem helpful if

1483
01:21:44,359 --> 01:21:40,719
you've had an experience but it's just

1484
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:44,369
as useful as any literature for example

1485
01:21:50,790 --> 01:21:47,250
the Magic Mountain

1486
01:21:54,030 --> 01:21:50,800
Thomas Mons gigantic thick novel that

1487
01:21:57,060 --> 01:21:54,040
they made me read in college I've never

1488
01:21:58,910 --> 01:21:57,070
had tuberculosis I've never been in a

1489
01:22:02,189 --> 01:21:58,920
sanitarium

1490
01:22:06,419 --> 01:22:02,199
back then they were for sick people not

1491
01:22:12,050 --> 01:22:06,429
mentally ill but I can take something

1492
01:22:16,350 --> 01:22:12,060
from reading The Magic Mountain or dumb

1493
01:22:18,990 --> 01:22:16,360
or was it I I think it's just I have

1494
01:22:20,939 --> 01:22:19,000
skis crime and punishment I've never

1495
01:22:25,290 --> 01:22:20,949
committed murder but I can learn

1496
01:22:28,580 --> 01:22:25,300
something from reading is a novel about

1497
01:22:39,540 --> 01:22:35,760
it's literature and it has value I think

1498
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:39,550
even comic books and romance novels have

1499
01:22:54,839 --> 01:22:49,640
explore something much deeper and it

1500
01:22:58,740 --> 01:22:54,849
it's a lot like Mozart's The Magic Flute

1501
01:23:07,169 --> 01:22:58,750
it's a journey through a magic but with

1502
01:23:11,790 --> 01:23:07,179
real essence for real life and it can be

1503
01:23:14,510 --> 01:23:11,800
so hard sometimes to to get that out you

1504
01:23:18,540 --> 01:23:14,520
you you know the feeling that sometimes

1505
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:18,550
getting it out and turning into words

1506
01:23:26,820 --> 01:23:21,730
that's that's a whole different animal

1507
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:26,830
so to speak yes and quite often words

1508
01:23:34,979 --> 01:23:31,449
fail but you know he was there and he

1509
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:34,989
had pretty good command of the language

1510
01:23:46,140 --> 01:23:42,010
I don't consider his prose quite as

1511
01:23:52,620 --> 01:23:46,150
polished as some other authors but and

1512
01:23:57,050 --> 01:23:52,630
he tell a story from a thousand

1513
01:24:02,490 --> 01:23:57,060
different perspectives oh yeah

1514
01:24:05,610 --> 01:24:02,500
that's one reason why his novel seemed

1515
01:24:10,140 --> 01:24:05,620
to have half a dozen main characters in

1516
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:10,150
each walking he needed to tell the story

1517
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:16,290
from more than one point of view because

1518
01:24:23,729 --> 01:24:20,050
each of us actually lives in a different

1519
01:24:29,700 --> 01:24:23,739
reality from other people we just don't

1520
01:24:35,310 --> 01:24:29,710
ordinarily need to know that for example

1521
01:24:39,290 --> 01:24:35,320
I was at dinner with my dad and his wife

1522
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:39,300
and a drunk at the next table kept

1523
01:24:47,399 --> 01:24:42,489
shouting every time my father tried to

1524
01:24:50,189 --> 01:24:47,409
talk I my back was to the drunk but you

1525
01:24:52,470 --> 01:24:50,199
dad was facing him that drunk would

1526
01:24:55,380 --> 01:24:52,480
start shouting every time dad opened his

1527
01:25:00,000 --> 01:24:55,390
mouth so I finally had enough and turned

1528
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:00,010
around and confronted the drunk and and

1529
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:03,010
dad's wife not mom but his second wife

1530
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:07,449
was humiliated because I made such a

1531
01:25:12,450 --> 01:25:10,090
scene and she could never go to that

1532
01:25:20,700 --> 01:25:12,460
restaurant again because I embarrassed

1533
01:25:23,430 --> 01:25:20,710
her that wasn't how I saw it this was

1534
01:25:30,630 --> 01:25:23,440
this the woman who did her dissertation

1535
01:25:33,209 --> 01:25:30,640
on Phil yeah that was Nita I think the

1536
01:25:35,490 --> 01:25:33,219
web still has it under her maiden named

1537
01:25:36,660 --> 01:25:35,500
pitch while not maiden name first

1538
01:25:40,919 --> 01:25:36,670
husband's name

1539
01:25:44,939 --> 01:25:40,929
Petronio nationally de Buzzbee dad has

1540
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:44,949
passed away by the way green years now

1541
01:25:53,149 --> 01:25:49,440
he was 86 so he had a good long run but

1542
01:25:56,340 --> 01:25:53,159
yeah I need is still alive but in

1543
01:26:00,970 --> 01:25:56,350
assisted living I can't say early onset

1544
01:26:04,100 --> 01:26:00,980
Alzheimer's P she's like 85

1545
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:04,110
so it's just Alzheimer's but not early

1546
01:26:11,870 --> 01:26:09,330
onset anyway now she saw it completely

1547
01:26:15,470 --> 01:26:11,880
differently I had my pepper spray ready

1548
01:26:21,140 --> 01:26:15,480
the drunk actually got up from the table

1549
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:21,150
and threatened to rip me a new one Wow

1550
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:26,730
when I asked him to quit shouting good

1551
01:26:38,780 --> 01:26:35,840
pepper spray yeah well at first I was

1552
01:26:41,900 --> 01:26:38,790
holding my steak knife and considering

1553
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:41,910
it how I might use it and then I decided

1554
01:26:50,420 --> 01:26:44,690
the pepper spray would work better a

1555
01:26:52,570 --> 01:26:50,430
non-lethal option but I thought you know

1556
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:52,580
I find that an interesting point though

1557
01:26:58,460 --> 01:26:55,410
what you were saying you know how how

1558
01:27:01,400 --> 01:26:58,470
everybody's perspective can be you know

1559
01:27:03,230 --> 01:27:01,410
so different and and I know smiles that

1560
01:27:06,380 --> 01:27:03,240
you know you've written about this

1561
01:27:08,270 --> 01:27:06,390
before you know you look at a UFO

1562
01:27:10,250 --> 01:27:08,280
experiences I'll just bring that back

1563
01:27:13,100 --> 01:27:10,260
because I know that's Tim Beckley is a

1564
01:27:16,220 --> 01:27:13,110
nice favorite a talking point how you

1565
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:16,230
have you know multiple witnesses and yet

1566
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:18,000
a lot of times you'll get such you know

1567
01:27:24,470 --> 01:27:21,170
like really vastly different stories on

1568
01:27:26,870 --> 01:27:24,480
on what they saw and they experienced

1569
01:27:29,110 --> 01:27:26,880
and and so I mean something just as you

1570
01:27:32,410 --> 01:27:29,120
know I can't really say mundane is

1571
01:27:37,820 --> 01:27:32,420
confronting a loud drunk in a restaurant

1572
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:37,830
but but but yeah I mean here you you

1573
01:27:42,440 --> 01:27:39,570
pull everybody aside and everybody will

1574
01:27:45,340 --> 01:27:42,450
tell sometimes you know very similar

1575
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:45,350
stories and then other times you know

1576
01:27:51,350 --> 01:27:48,330
just you know completely different than

1577
01:27:54,470 --> 01:27:51,360
what you remember yeah emotionally

1578
01:27:56,780 --> 01:27:54,480
charged incidents especially and in my

1579
01:27:58,450 --> 01:27:56,790
own personal life I've over the last few

1580
01:28:01,880 --> 01:27:58,460
years and talking to my mother

1581
01:28:04,130 --> 01:28:01,890
discovered vastly different remembrances

1582
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:04,140
of specific incidences that we both

1583
01:28:09,050 --> 01:28:06,090
remember but we remember them very very

1584
01:28:12,170 --> 01:28:09,060
differently and sure enough you know the

1585
01:28:13,860 --> 01:28:12,180
Air Force certainly has records of you

1586
01:28:16,310 --> 01:28:13,870
know oh we did a flare drop

1587
01:28:19,260 --> 01:28:16,320
and we got these amazingly different

1588
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:19,270
reports from from witnesses ranging from

1589
01:28:26,480 --> 01:28:21,130
I could see the beings inside the way I

1590
01:28:28,710 --> 01:28:26,490
lost the audio we hear you near you guys

1591
01:28:34,410 --> 01:28:28,720
well we can hear you Tessa

1592
01:28:39,990 --> 01:28:34,420
I can hear you now but you dropped for a

1593
01:28:41,010 --> 01:28:40,000
minute okay okay smile I'm sorry go

1594
01:28:43,140 --> 01:28:41,020
ahead and continue what you're saying

1595
01:28:46,290 --> 01:28:43,150
just just like you say that there can be

1596
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:46,300
vastly different perceptions and and the

1597
01:28:50,690 --> 01:28:47,890
more emotionally charged the incident

1598
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:50,700
the the more different I think those

1599
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:53,650
perceptions tend to be so you know the

1600
01:29:00,540 --> 01:28:57,010
the the one person in intestines example

1601
01:29:03,300 --> 01:29:00,550
you know the the wife of her or her

1602
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:03,310
stepmother you know perceives it as just

1603
01:29:07,260 --> 01:29:06,010
an embarrassment and you know whereas

1604
01:29:09,780 --> 01:29:07,270
you know it could have been a

1605
01:29:11,700 --> 01:29:09,790
life-threatening situation if this

1606
01:29:16,830 --> 01:29:11,710
person you know had gotten physically

1607
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:16,840
violent oh he wasn't even considering

1608
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:19,930
that he was just embarrassed at my

1609
01:29:30,480 --> 01:29:26,250
outburst how dare you embarrass or

1610
01:29:34,050 --> 01:29:30,490
threaten the manager with losing his

1611
01:29:41,850 --> 01:29:34,060
liquor license for serving alcohol to a

1612
01:29:49,290 --> 01:29:41,860
drunk some somebody who's already set to

1613
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:49,300
go alright anyway there are plenty of

1614
01:29:56,820 --> 01:29:52,570
examples like that and then there's my

1615
01:29:59,970 --> 01:29:56,830
mother who would argue with me about

1616
01:30:03,720 --> 01:29:59,980
things that happened when she was not

1617
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:03,730
there so how in the world could she have

1618
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:12,630
well I tessa smiles unfortunately we are

1619
01:30:18,390 --> 01:30:16,090
coming to the last three or four minutes

1620
01:30:21,630 --> 01:30:18,400
of the show so i want to give both of

1621
01:30:24,750 --> 01:30:21,640
you an opportunity to let our listeners

1622
01:30:26,859 --> 01:30:24,760
know about where they can find out more

1623
01:30:31,119 --> 01:30:26,869
about you as smiles won't you go ahead

1624
01:30:34,270 --> 01:30:31,129
first books websites articles anything

1625
01:30:37,509 --> 01:30:34,280
that our our listeners would love to

1626
01:30:40,089 --> 01:30:37,519
find out about you okay well thank you

1627
01:30:42,399 --> 01:30:40,099
Timms for having us on the show tonight

1628
01:30:43,299 --> 01:30:42,409
and thank you Tessa for for talking to

1629
01:30:46,929 --> 01:30:43,309
me

1630
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:46,939
most recently I was honored with being a

1631
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:50,510
contributor to the anthology UFO is

1632
01:30:55,259 --> 01:30:52,489
reframing the debate that features over

1633
01:30:58,119 --> 01:30:55,269
a dozen others contributing their ideas

1634
01:31:00,040 --> 01:30:58,129
towards trying to solve the UFO enigma

1635
01:31:03,909 --> 01:31:00,050
by looking at it from a different

1636
01:31:06,569 --> 01:31:03,919
perspective that was edited by Britain's

1637
01:31:09,819 --> 01:31:06,579
Robbie Graham and has a foreword by

1638
01:31:12,489 --> 01:31:09,829
religious scholar Diana Walsh Basilica

1639
01:31:15,009 --> 01:31:12,499
that's UFO is reframing the debate again

1640
01:31:16,989 --> 01:31:15,019
honored to be a part of that fantastic

1641
01:31:18,850 --> 01:31:16,999
book but if folks want to find out more

1642
01:31:22,719 --> 01:31:18,860
about me they can find it at smiles

1643
01:31:26,109 --> 01:31:22,729
Lewis calm and of course my nonprofit

1644
01:31:29,020 --> 01:31:26,119
lending library is located at anomaly

1645
01:31:30,270 --> 01:31:29,030
archives org so Tessa what are you doing

1646
01:31:36,310 --> 01:31:30,280
these days

1647
01:31:40,209 --> 01:31:36,320
well I have a blog Tessa dick calm I'm

1648
01:31:45,819 --> 01:31:40,219
all over Facebook I joined Twitter but I

1649
01:31:48,729 --> 01:31:45,829
don't do much with it and of course all

1650
01:31:52,979 --> 01:31:48,739
my books can be found on Amazon where I

1651
01:31:57,330 --> 01:31:52,989
have an author page whoa whoa and

1652
01:32:01,409 --> 01:31:57,340
believe me I am NOT getting rich on

1653
01:32:04,209 --> 01:32:01,419
Social Security and that's about it

1654
01:32:05,819 --> 01:32:04,219
what's the what's the titles of your two

1655
01:32:09,969 --> 01:32:05,829
most recent books

1656
01:32:16,709 --> 01:32:09,979
well conversations with Tillich a ditch

1657
01:32:21,250 --> 01:32:16,719
and I'm not sure might as well go with

1658
01:32:27,699 --> 01:32:21,260
my life on the edge of reality it's

1659
01:32:30,369 --> 01:32:27,709
about my own childhood and on into

1660
01:32:35,529 --> 01:32:30,379
adulthood but it barely skimmed the

1661
01:32:38,619 --> 01:32:35,539
surface and you and you say that you're

1662
01:32:39,989 --> 01:32:38,629
working on a new murder mystery

1663
01:32:44,129 --> 01:32:39,999
hopefully

1664
01:32:47,399 --> 01:32:44,139
I hope so yeah

1665
01:32:51,290 --> 01:32:47,409
murders lies is the first one so the

1666
01:32:54,290 --> 01:32:51,300
second one will be murder bleeds

1667
01:32:57,989 --> 01:32:54,300
which is a fitting title for vampires

1668
01:33:00,930 --> 01:32:57,999
yeah well I'm looking forward to reading

1669
01:33:03,180 --> 01:33:00,940
that and when you get that published

1670
01:33:05,580 --> 01:33:03,190
we'll have you back on to uh to talk

1671
01:33:07,589 --> 01:33:05,590
about it well and unfortunately guys I'm

1672
01:33:09,839 --> 01:33:07,599
gonna have to wrap the show up tonight

1673
01:33:12,229 --> 01:33:09,849
so thank you both very much for being

1674
01:33:15,750 --> 01:33:12,239
with us on exploring the bizarre and

1675
01:33:24,459 --> 01:33:15,760
both of you have a great evening and a

1676
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:26,709
you've been listening to exploring the

1677
01:33:33,430 --> 01:33:29,930
bazaar with hosts Timothy Beck knee

1678
01:33:35,740 --> 01:33:33,440
panting Swartz they're taking back the

1679
01:33:38,290 --> 01:33:35,750
night by jetting non-stop across the

1680
01:33:41,590 --> 01:33:38,300
cosmos in search of the truly bizarre

1681
01:33:43,209 --> 01:33:41,600
and totally unexplained with you as

1682
01:33:45,720 --> 01:33:43,219
they're cold

1683
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:45,730
Thursday nights at 7:00 p.m. Pacific

1684
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:50,210
10:00 p.m. Eastern on the K cor digital

1685
01:33:53,870 --> 01:33:51,449
radio

1686
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:53,880
for more information on exploring the

1687
01:34:00,169 --> 01:33:57,330
bazaars and hosts Timothy Becca and Tim

1688
01:34:03,260 --> 01:34:00,179
Swartz check out their K cor digital

1689
01:34:09,500 --> 01:34:03,270
radio network follow their YouTube